Tradinistas

[ToJesusMyHeart]

Have y'all seen this? 

 

http://tradinista.com/a-tradinista-manifesto/

 

 

[<3 PopeFrancis]

To be frank, is this Catholic?  

Just now, <3 PopeFrancis said:

To be frank, is this Catholic?  

It seems to be offshoot of Catholicism than a movement.

Ideologically it seems sound but with a vulnerable potential to be dangerous and heretical.  What I am trying to say is what do you @ToJesusMyHeart think?

[Amppax]

Well this will be fun.

I'm more of a Christian democracy/distributism type myself. 

PS- good to see you around TJMH!

[Amppax]

I am curious as to how they reconcile Marxist dialectical materialism with Thomistic metaphysics. I just don't see how that's possible. It's one thing to embrace a sort of democratic socialism (which Pope Benedict has written positively about) and embrace Marxism. I've only ever seen the check condemn Marxism, and philosophically I just can't see how it can be harmonized with Catholic thought. 

[ToJesusMyHeart]

10 hours ago, <3 PopeFrancis said:

To be frank, is this Catholic?  

It seems to be offshoot of Catholicism than a movement.

Ideologically it seems sound but with a vulnerable potential to be dangerous and heretical.  What I am trying to say is what do you @ToJesusMyHeart think?

Yes it is Catholic. The very first two points confirm that reality. 

1. Jesus Christ is the way, and the truth, and the life, who became man for the salvation of all.
We believe in the authority and teachings of Christ, entrusted to His Church. We invite all in sympathy with our beliefs and goals to join us, as our project concerns the common good of all humanity.

2. Political authority ought to promote the teachings of the Church.
We recognize the social kingship of Christ, and all people are subject to him by His very essence and power. While the polity has a positive obligation to facilitate the salvation of its citizens, it should not compel them to become Christian. The polity is autonomous, though not perfectly separated from, the Church.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

2 hours ago, Amppax said:

I am curious as to how they reconcile Marxist dialectical materialism with Thomistic metaphysics. I just don't see how that's possible. It's one thing to embrace a sort of democratic socialism (which Pope Benedict has written positively about) and embrace Marxism. I've only ever seen the check condemn Marxism, and philosophically I just can't see how it can be harmonized with Catholic thought. 

There is actually a 3 part article on precisely this question, @Amppax. 

Part 1: http://tradinista.com/a-catholic-socialism-part-i/

Part 2: http://tradinista.com/a-catholic-socialism-part-ii/

[Maggyie]

It's not authentically Catholic. It makes the same mistake so many movements, whether right or left, do: it substitutes the Gospel of Jesus Christ with a program of their own devising. 

it happens sometimes when people see the state the world is in, they decide that announcing the gospel has failed; Jesus had great ideas, sure, but he clearly was not "enough" to truly change the world into the ethical, just place it should be. So they come up with their own plan.

Thus they are very bold in handing down new commandments: "the class system must be erased" "thou shalt not own capital" etc. 

such people (again whether right or left) are unhappy with the church's teaching that our Christianity has implications for our politics. Rather they wish that our politics should have implications for the Church. If the "tradinistas" were in charge of anything you can bet they would start making holy Catholic martyrs post-haste (note the comment that they want to accomplish their goals peacefully if possible). 

Also I want to add that such people with grand programs are usually spoiled bourgeois Westerners. From a global perspective, the 21st century is the most just and least impoverished in history. Just in the last 20-30 years, huge percentages have been lifted out of poverty. Meanwhile progress in the West has slowed and in some cases reversed (income inequality). Myopia makes these effete Westerners unable to process these experiences of others. 

[ToJesusMyHeart]

29 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

It's not authentically Catholic. It makes the same mistake so many movements, whether right or left, do: it substitutes the Gospel of Jesus Christ with a program of their own devising. 

it happens sometimes when people see the state the world is in, they decide that announcing the gospel has failed; Jesus had great ideas, sure, but he clearly was not "enough" to truly change the world into the ethical, just place it should be. So they come up with their own plan.

Thus they are very bold in handing down new commandments: "the class system must be erased" "thou shalt not own capital" etc. 

such people (again whether right or left) are unhappy with the church's teaching that our Christianity has implications for our politics. Rather they wish that our politics should have implications for the Church. If the "tradinistas" were in charge of anything you can bet they would start making holy Catholic martyrs post-haste (note the comment that they want to accomplish their goals peacefully if possible). 

Your comments make me wonder if you read these (below)? They deserve an authentic read, not a skim. Because they address your concerns directly. You misunderstand the project. The whole reason this group exists (and is gaining momentum) is precisely because they take seriously that our Christianity has radical implications for our politics. 

Part 1: http://tradinista.com/a-catholic-socialism-part-i/

Part 2: http://tradinista.com/a-catholic-socialism-part-ii/

 

[Maggyie]

12 minutes ago, ToJesusMyHeart said:

Your comments make me wonder if you read these (below)? They deserve an authentic read, not a skim. Because they address your concerns directly. You misunderstand the project. The whole reason this group exists (and is gaining momentum) is precisely because they take seriously that our Christianity has radical implications for our politics. 

Part 1: http://tradinista.com/a-catholic-socialism-part-i/

Part 2: http://tradinista.com/a-catholic-socialism-part-ii/

 

I did read it. They don't address my concerns at all! It's again, an attempt to substitute an economic system for the gospel. Neither socialism nor capitalism or any other "ism" of human design can establish justice on earth. One "ism" or the other may be marginally more effective at "lifting up the lowly" but not significantly so. It is sin that allows social injustice and exploitation. You can change out the economic system and the injustice and exploitation will remain, because the humans with sinful hearts remain.

Inevitably when the tradinistas find that their "perfect" program for justice and prosperity has failed to obtain justice and prosperity, they will decide to start eliminating the fly in the soup (the humans).

the Church (with its inevitable resistance to being integrated with a "ism") will supply the first victims.

 

[Peace]

55 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

It's not authentically Catholic. It makes the same mistake so many movements, whether right or left, do: it substitutes the Gospel of Jesus Christ with a program of their own devising. 

it happens sometimes when people see the state the world is in, they decide that announcing the gospel has failed; Jesus had great ideas, sure, but he clearly was not "enough" to truly change the world into the ethical, just place it should be. So they come up with their own plan.

Thus they are very bold in handing down new commandments: "the class system must be erased" "thou shalt not own capital" etc. 

such people (again whether right or left) are unhappy with the church's teaching that our Christianity has implications for our politics. Rather they wish that our politics should have implications for the Church. If the "tradinistas" were in charge of anything you can bet they would start making holy Catholic martyrs post-haste (note the comment that they want to accomplish their goals peacefully if possible). 

Also I want to add that such people with grand programs are usually spoiled bourgeois Westerners. From a global perspective, the 21st century is the most just and least impoverished in history. Just in the last 20-30 years, huge percentages have been lifted out of poverty. Meanwhile progress in the West has slowed and in some cases reversed (income inequality). Myopia makes these effete Westerners unable to process these experiences of others. 

Hmm. I believe in Universal Health Care and other things not specifically mentioned in the Bible. Does that mean that I am also attempting to replace the gospel with schemes of my own devising? 

I am not endorsing the content of the website, but I do not see why advocacy of  certain political positions must necessarily be in conflict with the gospel. Where exactly did the author state that we should not repent, believe on the Lord, get baptized, and obey His commandments (or however else we might define the gospel)?

[<3 PopeFrancis]

7 hours ago, Amppax said:

I am curious as to how they reconcile Marxist dialectical materialism with Thomistic metaphysics. I just don't see how that's possible. It's one thing to embrace a sort of democratic socialism (which Pope Benedict has written positively about) and embrace Marxism. I've only ever seen the check condemn Marxism, and philosophically I just can't see how it can be harmonized with Catholic thought. 

It is not possible.  St. Thomas with his metaphysics is of God.   Marx with his form of socialism is not of God.

The movement seems to have more of a political agenda for the sake of it.  Just how I see it.  

 

19 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

the Church (with its inevitable resistance to being integrated with a "ism") will supply the first victims.

Well "'isms" are usually how heresies start.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

20 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

I did read it. They don't address my concerns at all! It's again, an attempt to substitute an economic system for the gospel. Neither socialism nor capitalism or any other "ism" of human design can establish justice on earth. One "ism" or the other may be marginally more effective at "lifting up the lowly" but not significantly so. It is sin that allows social injustice and exploitation. You can change out the economic system and the injustice and exploitation will remain, because the humans with sinful hearts remain.

Inevitably when the tradinistas find that their "perfect" program for justice and prosperity has failed to obtain justice and prosperity, they will decide to start eliminating the fly in the soup (the humans).

the Church (with its inevitable resistance to being integrated with a "ism") will supply the first victims.

 

Just to clarify, there are 3 different and separate things to read. The first link, in the OP, is the manifesto, the second and third are different, distinct essays that do precisely address concerns of how the politics align with Church teaching. Perhaps you did read all 3 documents, if so, thanks. I want to clarify that there's not just the one thing to be read. The essays are quite long and in depth. 

[Peace]

29 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

Inevitably when the tradinistas find that their "perfect" program for justice and prosperity has failed to obtain justice and prosperity, they will decide to start eliminating the fly in the soup (the humans).

the Church (with its inevitable resistance to being integrated with a "ism") will supply the first victims.

Heck. For all I know you or anyone else on this site could commence a killing rampage.

But out of charity I will assume that you do not have such motives unless given a clear reason to believe otherwise.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

The tradinistas passionately affirm the dignity and goodness of all human life, so I don't really know why we are presuming they secretly want to murder everyone...

[KnightofChrist]

3 minutes ago, ToJesusMyHeart said:

The tradinistas passionately affirm the dignity and goodness of all human life, so I don't really know why we are presuming they secretly want to murder everyone...

Socialism/Marxism in its various forms has lead to hundreds of millions of deaths world-wide. It really should not be shocking for Maggie to express concern. Perhaps if a group was advocating marrying Nationalsozialistische a form of Socialism to Catholicism you and @Peace would share a similar concern and likely, I hope, find such a proposal asinine.