Speaking of mental illness, moral choices can be quite screwed up. BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

4 hours ago, CatherineM said:

The lack of understanding by priests is something we have been actively working on for years. Speaking to seminarians and lay formation students every new cycle. My recently accepted masters thesis was on the pastoral care of schizophrenics. It's hard especially with foreign priests 

Hi CM - Great news - and with much indeed achieved in my book!  Congrats too on acceptance of you masters thesis.  Those who suffer schizophrenia, as I am sure you know, suffer terribly and very often completely misunderstood, even abandoned - often due only to non-understanding and 'standards' of the general culture in society and in The Church.  Theirs can be a real hell on earth.  Pastoral care is a vital area -  those priests and religious, nuns, ordinary everyday laypeople, who supported me along my own precarious journey, they were essential to wherever I might be at now.  Sometimes, it seems to me, that The Church knows how to say all the right things; however, flow on to diocesan and parish level may not occur at all as a general practise in play.  You are really working at diocesan level in priestly and lay formation students (flow on eventually to parish level in hope) - great stuff! My other groan is that if mental illness & sufferers somehow comes into the headlines in society and The Church, it will only last until the next headline takes over and then the subject and interest can fade into obscurity (the fate of not only mental illness as a subject either) - at least it seems this way to me here in Australia.

Thank you very much, Catherine, for your interest in the subject of MI in The Church and for formation of seminarians and lay formation students where MI is concerned - and every success with God's every blessing too in your work and efforts.  I will keep you and your work in my intentions - they are mine.

 I was only reflecting this morning (on another subject) that social change, including changes in the culture operating in The Church generally, does take time - sometimes years and years before we really notice any sort of change slowly taking place generally.  If 'some sort of something' in a positive direction is starting up somewhere be it ever so small (mustard seed), providing it is persistent and perhaps even in the face of discouragement and difficulties - it will have a flow on effect, eventually, I believe - not necessarily in the time of the foundational efforts either.  Patience, application with fortitude and prayer - not in that order either.   The story of St Therese is a wonderful inspiration to all, in that an obscure and unknown nun in a sort of backwater French Carmelite monastery at the time, rises from 'unlikely' to the greatest heights in The Church: Saint and Doctor of The Church.  She in fact revolutionised our spirituality and spoke both to the great and to the small.  Her own fellow nuns thought of her as a good sort of Carmelite nun, but nothing special!  Amazing what The Good Lord can and does do.  St Therese built her way of life and theology in confident trust in God as nothing other Love and Mercy.  She even wrote that she would have followed the same path were she the most terrible of sinners.  That is prime encouragement to me!

It might be even a tiny seed one plants, but seeds can and do grow - and the result can be astounding. "Lord, please give success to the work of our hands" (DO Psalm)........ Prayer.

I must add, however, that for the priests I have come across with negative attitudes towards mental illness and those that suffer MI, I have come across more that were willing to listen attentively and try to understand, learn.... at least about my personal brand of mental illness.  So many factors contributed in an essential way to my own now brand of 'stability'.  This is one of the reasons I rejoice in a return to 'stability' and lack of psychotic episodes necessitating hospitalization.  I must cease personally too to state "return to normality" because I truly have no idea what it actually might be.  I have given up trying to work it out as a logical definition!  Sanity or normality, it seems to me, is indeed an ever shifting line set by society.  That I can cope in ordinary daily life and cope quite well and as a contributor in the general society as well as my parish and diocese -  I do hope might speak.  It is only a very small step forward, but at least it is in a positive direction and in that I do give grateful and much thanks.  Deo Gratius.

Another point I would add, is that I have never come across a religious sister nor monastic nun that displayed distinct negative attitudes towards MI and sufferers.  If anything, what they might lack is understanding - but not at all culpable in my book.  It seems to me to be simply a lack of education in the facts of mental illness and related facts about sufferers, especially their difficulties in various directions.  It is a question of education and that is where you are involved.  Thanks heaps so much again.  It is really warming and encouraging for me to read.

Thank you very much indeed for posting!  I have had a special sort of Sunday and your post is my icing on the cake!  Deo Gratius.

Warm regards..........Barb

PS Hastily written, I hope it does make sense, duty calls.  I need a break!

 

Edited October 2, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

Just random comments almost - not posting to anyone in particular - I was sitting out under my pergola with a cup of decaf beginning my break, as the wind picks up and heaps of rain on the way according to the forecast. So much on my mind. A few thoughts occurred to me .... the bipolar mind I suspect.

God is indeed The Just One - but if you think carefully about it, His Divine and Infinite Mercy flows from His Absolute Divine Justice.

God's Justice is like a raging fire when I consider my own sins and those that exist in His world, but His Infinite (endless) Mercy is the water that quenches that fire, whenever it is appealed to: "Jesus, Son of David, please have Mercy on me and all.  We are sinners."

An old saying of mine. " If you call on God's Justice for anything at all, be careful.  You don't know it, but your own rubbish tin in your own backyard just blew up."......think about it.  ...........it's in the Gospel.

 Buddie, my Maltese Cross especially is very happy.  I have on my heavy winter coat walking around inside with an apron on underneath.  Buddie knows for sure that Mum is staying home.  Where is Missie, my little tabby cat?  Well, I have a large cushion to support my back on my high-backed swivel computer chair. Every time without fail I sit at the computer, Missie jams her self between my back and the high back of the chair, and goes to sleep on the cushion.........and no matter how often I get cross with her and order her off because it makes my sitting uncomfortable.  She knows she is not supposed to be there - but Missie is the typical cat.  "Rules, what rules for goodness sake? I don't have any nor abide by anyone else's either"  

4th October - Feast of St Francis of Assisi.   God bless God's little creatures............and the big ones too.

 Back in the days, my Carmelite prioress felt that the electric typewriter was probably created just for me.  Man oh man, the computer is even better.

Ok, still got some decaf left.........back out to my pergola. 

 

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Cats believe in rules--THEIR rules! Your problem is lack of obedience.   I'm sure your cat is surprised you haven't learned that by now. My cat is constantly trying to "train" me.

My cat and I have a daily power struggle over "my" spot on the couch. Every time I get up, she moves to sit in the spot where I was sitting. Cats are very hierarchical--no such thing as "equality."

[Guest]

 "Dogs have masters, cats have slaves." 

 

[CatherineM]

The first time we presented to seminarians several years ago, their formation director had spent time at the large mental health hospital as a chaplain. We played an auditory recreation of what the voices sound like for schizophrenics. He looked shocked and then went white. First realization of what they were going through. A couple of Filipino seminarians looked like they were going to pass out. 

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

49 minutes ago, CatherineM said:

The first time we presented to seminarians several years ago, their formation director had spent time at the large mental health hospital as a chaplain. We played an auditory recreation of what the voices sound like for schizophrenics. He looked shocked and then went white. First realization of what they were going through. A couple of Filipino seminarians looked like they were going to pass out. 

I continue to be impressed by the work you do!

I wish there was a way to teach people what major depression feels like or what a panic attack feels like. I think that afterwards there would be no question in their minds that this was something physical, not a character defect.

[Guest]

Thank you again, Catherine - and for all you are doing.  I agree with IgnatiusOL - that we need to find the language to communicate the suffering of MI and MI right across the board.  If sufferers of any kind of MI were not so fearful of stigma (including attitudes of "character defect")and talked openly about their condition, things might improve.  Although I do think there is more willingness to communicate than before, but it seems to me to be mainly only where depression is concerned, which is a valid MI.  Again, it can be a case of the 'right' words are becoming known and accepted, while in the day to day sufferers can still experience rejection and stigma.

We do know that the biggest hurdle a sufferer is going to have to cope with is stigma.  From stigma flows more major problems: rejection, isolation and loneliness.  From that, of course, can come a sense of meaningless, lack of self esteem and confidence, hopelessness.

It is horrific what people who suffer schizophrenia go through and many of them most of 24x7........ and this includes rejection and abandonment on the human level.  It is a difficult, even impossible, frame of mind for those who have never experienced it - and education is the answer even shock value if it helps - and I think if one is going to be educated about the facts of MI, there will be shock.  I do think that in the minds of many it is fear that triggers rejection and/or abandonment.

In my previous suburb I knew quite a few sufferers/visitors with serious schizophrenia.  I never had problems with any of them due to violence or the likelihood of violence - whereas, I had teenagers also visit (not suffering MI) and sometimes I needed to ask someone(s) to leave.  That is not to state that sufferers of schizophrenia do not commit violence.

 Because of media, you will read headlines similar to: "Schizophrenic stabs and murders..............." but never headlines that state similar to "Completely normal person stabs and murders........"   Hence, fear of sufferers of MI is generated and affirmed, confirmed as valid.

It is not to state that those who suffer schizophrenia are incapable of violence - they are just as capable as any other person; however, their reasons for the violence/non social behaviour is at times totally non understandable, or unreal - disconnected from reality. An indication on another level of how in psychotic states, moral choices might be all screwed up.  Not unusual for fellow human beings to refuse to accept this - but The Lord certainly does.

In psychotic states, there can be the ordinary everyday type of reality whereas the sufferer can be living a totally different reality - TOTALLY, nothing to do with ordinary everyday reality.  Totally different.  The same can apply with depression, I think.  The sufferer experiences reality in a totally different way to a non sufferer.  To the sufferer, the whole of reality is screwed up compared to the most common or 'normal' experience of the same reality.  However in the depressed state, what is experienced as the reality - is experienced as very real.

I once had a psychiatrist say to me "You know it is not real".  Bit of silly thing to say.  To me (psychotic state) it was very real - it was he that had the problem and out of step with what was real. 

Panic attacks are terrible things.  Mine expressed themselves as similar to a heart attack - so much so that the ambulance people told me that I must call them because it just could be a heart attack rather than panic.  Mine had no rhyme or reason to them at times, just suddenly struck out the blue ...........could be during a conversation, in the shops, or while reading a book, having a shower - i.e. at any time.

I am saying things as best I am able - I am hoping others might correct me wherever necessary.

[Guest]

What I do think about and at times share with other sufferers of MI specifically, is that Jesus indeed was like us in all things, except sin.  Mental Illness is not sinful (as with any illness) and Jesus never had a mental illness and from what we know, any other serious illness either.  The fact about mental illness is that it does have a strong element of social disgrace unlike other serious illnesses. That does place sufferers of MI in an intimately reflective place, an intimate relationship of unity, with the Sufferings of Jesus.  It is a place at once of dignity and of social disgrace.  This ties in with what Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragán (Adelaide - World Day of The Sick) had to state in my post here (scroll down post to "The Mentally Ill, A Faithful Image of God"

Quote

 

Isaiah 53:2 http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PP0.HTM

There was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him, nor appearance that would attract us to him. He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem.

.................................we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted. ................Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away, and who would have thought any more of his destiny? When he was cut off from the land of the living,

(I have edited the quotation above from Isaiah 53)

 

 Those who might criticize sufferers of MI for going off medication might have some compassion and understanding, less condemning, if they took the medication themselves.  The side-effects are cruel and a sufferer is on these meds 24x7.  What happens in fact is that one nasty condition can be corrected as it creates another nasty condition.  However, the second nasty condition is the more socially acceptable, since the socially acceptable do not have to suffer it.

Should a sufferer go off medication unless with psychiatric guidance.  Absolutely not!  However, I know from experience why some do so. It is not wise nor recommended in any way whatsoever - it can be a terrible mistake, but I know too how difficult life can be with the meds - and written off by the socially acceptable as 'character defects'. 

Flash of anger there...........c'est la vie. As long as I am still not angry at Night Prayer and preparing for going to sleep, I can live with it.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[<3 PopeFrancis]

12 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

We do know that the biggest hurdle a sufferer is going to have to cope with is stigma.  From stigma flows more major problems: rejection, isolation and loneliness.  From that, of course, can come a sense of meaningless, lack of self esteem and confidence, hopelessness.

This sounds like a vicious cycle and needs more sympathy from society.

[Guest]

Thank you for your comment, 3PF and very real kindness - I do wonder if it is so much sympathy as understanding, compassion and recognition, which would hopefully preclude rejection.  It is not only rejection re personal relationships, but rejection too on an institutional type level.  Hopefully such dispositions might gift the other with awareness, eyes and mind open, to recognise the gifts that sufferers can have and a willingness to help them develop and serve with those gifts........to become contributing members of society and The Church.  This would be an absolutely major step for sufferers and for the community too.  Wherever it just might have been put into practise, the results speak loudly, while it just might be a rocky and precarious type of journey for all involved to the results "speaking loudly".  It becomes a willingness and openness to journey with the sufferer - i.e. the parable of The Good Samaritan.

Most common side effects of Seroquel (also known as Quetiapine) follows.  I have used Seroquel as an example as it is a medication with which I am familiar.  I experience most all the side effects below to some degree or other, including under the heading: "Other side effects include".  Some of my side effects are severe - while others might be less so.  My psychiatrist is aware of my side effects.  It all has to be weighed up by my doctor: harm caused by side effects versus likely harm if medication is changed or ceased.  We have tried a change of medication, that did not work successfully either.

So I journey the 'devil'  ...(Seroquel)
 

Quote

 

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/seroquel-side-effects.html

Common side effects of Seroquel include: dizziness, headache, weakness, drowsiness, constipation, increased serum triglycerides, increased serum cholesterol, increased thyroid stimulating hormone level, and xerostomia. Other side effects include: increased serum alanine aminotransferase, dyspepsia, weight gain, orthostatic hypotension, pharyngitis, abdominal pain, and tachycardia. See below for a comprehensive list of adverse effects.

 

 I will stress again that a sufferer of MI should never cease medication without doctor's advice and support.  With my doctor's support, we tried my coming off Seroquel.  The side effects I experienced as Seroquel was reduced became severe (including interruption to sleep resulting in extreme tiredness next day = inability to function and cope during the day) and it became a case of:  "I prefer the devil I know (Seroquel), to the one I do not know."

Every sufferer's reaction to taking prescribed medication, and coming off it with medical support, will probably be different.  It needs to be noted too that the content of a psychotic episode can be far more serious than any side effect of medication - and that the content of a psychotic episode might vary too from risk of harm to the sufferer to risk of harm to the community.  Psychotic episodes and their content are quite complex matters it seems to me, while cruel general stereotypes and stigma do persist in the community in the day to day.

The side effects of psychiatric medication can be quite severe in many sufferers.  This might be a reason the patient stops medication; however, while it might be the reason, it is certainly not a just excuse to do so.  In fact, one would have to lack common sense, prudence and wisdom to do so with any accurate education at all re mental illness and related medication.  This is not always due to risk to the community, rather the risks to the sufferer - including that without medication, the symptoms of mental illness become overt and obvious.  What then follows is that the environment/community reacts in a totally negative manner (based on fear, stereotypical concepts re MI) and rejection of the sufferer. This in turn has a negative reaction in the sufferer (isolation, loneliness, lack of meaning in life, hopelessness .... and etc.);  hence, it just might be that medication could be protecting the sufferer from the community just as much - or more than - any sort of vv.

I have very deliberately used sound resource material below:

Quote

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686644/

Excerpt: " Violence may be more of an issue in patients diagnosed with personality disorders and substance dependence. The overall impact of mental illness as a factor in the violence that occurs in society as a whole appears to be overemphasized, possibly intensifying the stigma already surrounding psychiatric disorders. Violence and mental illness are not without connection, however, as they share many biologic and psychosocial aspects."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160606200849.htm

Date:

June 6, 2016

Source:

Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health

Summary:

Nearly four in 10 news stories about mental illness analyzed by researchers connect mental illness with violent behavior toward others, even though less than five percent of violence in the United States is directly related to mental illness.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4921198/ Excerpt "News media coverage of mental illness changed very little during 1995–2014. Coverage has continued to emphasize interpersonal violence in a way that is highly disproportionate to actual rates of such violence among the US population with mental illness. Initiatives to educate reporters and the opinion leaders they use as sources regarding the relationship between mental illness and interpersonal violence are needed, as are efforts to increase news media depictions of successful treatment for and recovery from mental illness, which have the potential to reduce harmful social stigma toward this population."

 

 

 

 

[<3 PopeFrancis]

 

On 10/2/2016 at 10:53 PM, CatherineM said:

The first time we presented to seminarians several years ago, their formation director had spent time at the large mental health hospital as a chaplain. We played an auditory recreation of what the voices sound like for schizophrenics. He looked shocked and then went white. First realization of what they were going through. A couple of Filipino seminarians looked like they were going to pass out. 

Why are foreign priests and seminarians particularly affected?

[CatherineM]

8 hours ago, <3 PopeFrancis said:

 

Why are foreign priests and seminarians particularly affected?

I think it's because the idea of true possession is more of a cultural norm for them. They hear those voices and became really afraid. 

[<3 PopeFrancis]

1 hour ago, CatherineM said:

I think it's because the idea of true possession is more of a cultural norm for them. They hear those voices and became really afraid. 

Thank you.  That is interesting.  This is amazing technololgy.

I hear there is similar technology for autism and migraine headaches.

This awareness is wonderful breakthrough for the Mental Health community particularly as @BarbaraTherese mentioned for purposes of stigma.

 

[Guest]

I think this thread is probably coming to a natural conclusion.   The subject of this thread was moral responsibility and mental illness.  It is a quite complex area and why I used "can be screwed up" rather than "are screwed up".  Just a few quotations below to round off the thread.

http://catholicmoraltheology.com/st-augustine-catholics-and-mental-illness/         .........."What a wondrous thing it is that we have been given the ability to know our world, our selves, and even, with the help of grace, our God!  In the midst of this beautiful, celebratory passage, however, he interrupts himself to say this:St Augustine "City of God" ............."Crazy people say and do many incongruous things, things for the most part alien to their intentions and their characters, certainly contrary to their good intentions and characters; and when we think about their words and actions, or see them with our eyes, we can scarcely — or possibly we cannot at all — restrain our tears, if we consider their situation as it deserves to be considered........"...........

Quote

 

http://catholicmoraltheology.com/st-augustine-catholics-and-mental-illness/ "At our very best, we know that mental illness is a tragedy, one that afflicts those who did not choose it, and we serve and care for those so afflicted as we would care for Christ.  But the range of mental illnesses and the variety of behavioural symptoms often make it hard for many of us not to judge those with mental illness as moral and/or spiritual failures.  The stigma of that judgment, for many, ends up being as big an additional burden as the illness itself.  Educating ourselves about mental illness is a great place to start.  Being courageous enough to talk about it is another.....".............

............."........... When someone is approaching mania, they often feel energetic and creative and productive. They are often at their best in sort of a hypomanic phase. In both cases, when you are dealing with someone who is genuinely ill, medication and other treatment is really essential, so that they don’t swing further out of control. Many, many people complain that they are not themselves on their meds. This is true both because of the side effects of psychophamaceuticals (horrid) and because of their *intended* effects. The fact of the matter is that these illnesses and their solutions both touch on personality in such a deep way that it is very difficult to parse.........

.................. I think sticking to the language of illness is a starting point. But I think one of the things that churches may be poised to do more about than other organizations: people with severe, persistent mental illnesses need their communities to realize that all medicine has any hope of ever doing for them is to stabalize them. They need communities that value and welcome them, and that work with them to create ways for them to make real contributions.  .........

.............. I did hear other chaplains deride or dismiss treatment altogether and was appalled! Though I did see the occasional flashes of brilliance and insight from the patients, which I felt were unduly romanticized by some of my peers, I was more often struck by the grinding loneliness that the patients and their families experienced. Also, as you said, patients who are manic or delusional often have religious aspects to their experience, but because it is linekd to illness, we have no way of really being able to morally justify confirming that they are experiencing something divine. For every person I saw break and recover enough to be released, I saw many more whose illnesses refused to bend to either therapy or medications............."..............

 

  Further reading http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11542b.htm#IV

Edited October 5, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[<3 PopeFrancis]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and knowledge from the physical to spiritual trials (Crosses) faced by MI sufferers. The stigma they suffer from society is one of the worse barriers to healing from it.  I believe there can be healing because of tech innovations and growing awareness.