Speaking of mental illness, moral choices can be quite screwed up. BarbaraTherese

[<3 PopeFrancis]

I've always wondered what people with mental illnesses are accountable for for example the Colorado shootings etc. or on a daily scale.

 

[Jack4]

Depends. 

[CatherineM]

If they are truly mentally ill, then they aren't accountable. The exception in my mind are those who voluntarily go off their meds when stable. To me that's the same as holding a drunk driver accountable. They were too drunk to know what they were doing, but at some point they were sober and knew they were going to drink without a plan to get home safely. If you're sane and stable, know that going off the meds will make you crazy and unable to control yourself, and you still do it, you should be held accountable. 

[Spem in alium]

There's actually a story here at the moment about a man who killed his father. He's not been charged with murder because he has been found to have schizophrenia (diagnosed after the event, and untreated) and was taking some kind of drugs, perhaps recreational.

I agree with CatherineM. If there is true mental illness, if the person really isn't aware, then they can't be held accountable.

[<3 PopeFrancis]

Thank you.

[Guest]

Because I so know what can happen during an episode of bipolar is the reason I see my psychiatrist regularly even though I have not been psychotic for over 10 years and nothing compels me to see her.  An episode of bipolar quite literally terrifies me in it's destructive power of lifestyle and relationships - to mention two only.

 It is my choice to do so, including to take the medication prescribed (Seroquel).  With my doctor, I had an attempt to go off Seroquel; however, going to sleep and my sleep pattern was interrupted.  We tried various over the counter type sleep aids, but nothing (I could afford) helped in the long term.  My doctor said that to prescribe a sleep aid would be adopting one serious medication to abandon another.  I decided the devil I knew was better than the one I did not know and I have stayed on the Seroquel and going to sleep and sleeping is back where it should be. 

Seroquel is not a nice medication at all in the side effects: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/drugsafety/ucm089126.pdf

I have never in the history of my illness gone off medication without my doctor's guidance.  It is very easy indeed to criticize those sufferers of MI who might do so.  If those critical actually took the medication in the longer term (although even immediate side effects are nasty), there might be some understanding and compassion for sufferers who stop medication - that is a reason, not an excuse.  No sufferer of MI should cease medication without doctor's advice..  What can happen, and I am familiar with it in sufferers, is the person is well for an extended period but does not realise that it is the medication that is keeping them well and stop taking it; hence relapse.  On the other hand, some have stopped taking medication on their own decision and have not had a relapse......to date.  There is no way of knowing which way one will go without actually ceasing medication.

It is unknown just why my psychotic episodes ceased.  Nor is it known whether I need Seroquel to stay well.  However, the attempt to abandon it was not successful due to sleep problems.  We also tried dropping Seroquel and adopting another anti-psychotic; however, side effects were also entirely unwelcome to say the least.

Please say a prayer for sufferers of MI - it as a type of hell on earth.

[Guest]

I did wonder a day or so ago, when I posted into another thread, whether I would get an opportunity to sound off about mental illness.  Thank you 3PF for this thread.

Those that criticise sufferers of MI for one reason or another (including moral choices) in reality should, in my opinion, go down on their knees every single day of their life and thank God they do not suffer mental illness.  The state of mind cannot be conceived unless one experiences it. There can be many losses in life, but you truly know what it is to be stripped of absolutely everything when you loose your own normal state of mind.  And you will not know that you have lost it unless the brand of MI is episodic and one returns to one's normal state of mind.  In that case, reflecting back on the episode can be cruel - one does not understand one's own self.  There is an added cruelty in knowing (while well) that at any point one can experience an episode again and be what I can only describe as out of control of one's own selfhood. To know that that episode might take apart totally one's way of life and relationships built up since the last episode.

I was a long way into my now well years before reading various texts (sound authors) and able to speak with my psychiatrist, reflecting back from hindsight, before I came to some understanding anyway of what I had experienced with no little sense of horror, including moral choices during an episode.  Be all this as it may, my journey with mental illness has so polished my sense of understanding and compassion, forgiveness - mercy - as I don't think any other experience (outside the miraculous as it were) could do so.  For that I am absolutely grateful, Deo Gratius, for my journey with psychotic mental illness.

If one unites sound theology with known psychology re mental Illness, the conclusion is obvious:

"

The Mentally Ill Patient "A Faithful Image of God"  https://zenit.org/articles/the-mentally-ill-patient-a-faithful-image-of-god-2/

ADELAIDE, Australia, FEB. 18, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Here is an excerpt of an address Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragán, president of the Pontifical Council for Health Care Workers, prepared for World Day of the Sick. The main events of the World Day were held Feb. 9-11 in Adelaide.

Excerpt only: "Therefore, once the mental illness has caused such a disorder as to take away from the mentally ill patient any responsibility for his actions — qualifying them as separation from the divine will, as a sin — the mental patient cannot separate from God.

In other words, the image of God in him cannot be distorted. In this case his knowledge or his volitive option is no longer sufficient to motivate any human action that separates him from God. His bodily and psychic conditions do not allow him to commit a grave sin, given that in his state of disequilibrium he does not have that full knowledge and ability of assent required to sin.

If we approach the argument from this point of view, whereby the mentally ill patient does not have the knowledge or the faculty of full consent required to commit a mortal sin, his is not a deformed image of God, since that image can only be deformed by sin. Certainly, it is the suffering image of God, but not a deformed image. He is a reflection of the mystery of the victorious Cross of the Lord. Inspired by the image of the Suffering Servant of Yahweh (Isaiah 53:1-7) we are drawn to a conscious act of faith in the suffering Christ.

It is not by chance that in the old popular Mexican language, a mad person was called “bandito,” that is, “blessed”; […] without the full use of reasoning, he was unable to commit sin and was, therefore, destined to eternal life.

It is true that the objective disorder of sin and its consequences are manifest in the mentally ill patient; however, at the same time, there is in him the historical equilibrium of the only possible order, the order and equilibrium of the Redemption.

This is not comprehensible to a secularized mentality; it is only understood within the context of Christian optimism, which stems from a reasoned faith that tells us how in such circumstances our obligations towards a mentally ill person, on one hand, satisfy our duty to see the suffering Christ in the poor and less protected; and on the other hand the idea of seeing in the patient the love of God who has indicated him as his chosen one, in the sense that he shall not be separated from Him.

He is therefore a proof of the crucified love of God. Hence, the best thing we can do is to give them a treatment of love. Since the mentally ill patient is also the image of the resurrected Christ, we have the obligation of being the “Good Samaritan,” that is, providing all that is necessary for his care.

We need to think about a series of treatments that should be devised to pull these patients out of the prostration that is all the more painful the deeper the psychic suffering is. In fact these patients often lose the sense of human relations and feel persecuted by a hostile surrounding environment; or the subjectivity of the environment disappears and for them people become many objects, or are indifferent or even real threats to their security."

 

[<3 PopeFrancis]

29 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I have never in the history of my illness gone off medication without my doctor's guidance.  It is very easy indeed to criticize those sufferers of MI who might do so. 

Yes I must agree.  Sometimes mental illness sufferers will need monitoring services so that they take their medications.  Only God knows who is taking their medications irresponsibly or not.  That would be the obscure line between accountability.  To not give responsibility to a mentally ill person would be to obliterate the dignity of the person.

9 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I did wonder a day or so ago, when I posted into another thread, whether I would get an opportunity to sound off about mental illness.  Thank you 3PF for this thread.

Those that criticise sufferers of MI for one reason or another (including moral choices) in reality should, in my opinion, go down on their knees every single day of their life and thank God they do not suffer mental illness.  The state of mind cannot be conceived unless one experiences it. There can be many losses in life, but you truly know what it is to be stripped of absolutely everything when you loose your own normal state of mind.  And you will not know that you have lost it unless the brand of MI is episodic and one returns to one's normal state of mind.  In that case, reflecting back on the episode can be cruel - one does not understand one's own self.  There is an added cruelty in knowing (while well) that at any point one can experience an episode again and be what I can only describe as out of control of one's own selfhood. To know that that episode might take apart totally one's way of life and relationships built up since the last episode.

I was a long way into my now well years before reading various texts (sound authors) and able to speak with my psychiatrist, reflecting back from hindsight, before I came to some understanding anyway of what I had experienced with no little sense of horror, including moral choices during an episode.  Be all this as it may, my journey with mental illness has so polished my sense of understanding and compassion, forgiveness - mercy - as I don't think any other experience (outside the miraculous as it were) could do so.  For that I am absolutely grateful, Deo Gratius, for my journey with psychotic mental illness.

If one unites sound theology with known psychology re mental Illness, the conclusion is obvious:

 

 

Very good article.  Very merciful indeed and expectantly faithful.  

There is this other work I wanted to get soon by Fr. Ripperger  Introduction to the Science of Psychology.  It gives a metaphysical understanding to common sense based I think, on the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, <3 PopeFrancis said:

Yes I must agree.  Sometimes mental illness sufferers will need monitoring services so that they take their medications.  Only God knows who is taking their medications irresponsibly or not.  That would be the obscure line between accountability.  To not give responsibility to a mentally ill person would be to obliterate the dignity of the person.

I would venture to say that probably every sufferer of certainly serious mental illness knows what it is to have their dignity torn away and obliterated.

You are correct of course in that only God knows for sure any actual moral position whatsoever (for anyone) before Him, the problem is that sufferers of mental illness need understanding etc. on the human level just like any other human being - and perhaps MI sufferers need it somewhat more so.  It is known that support and support systems is absolutely vital on the road towards mental health and some sort of stability - if it is going to occur.

 For probably ten years into my twenty years of experiencing psychotic episodes, I was accused by my doctors (I was then in Public Mental Health) of not taking my medication because I would almost continually have psychotic episodes.  The doctors convinced my family I was not taking my medication.  As a result, my family was encouraged to bring an order against me to make it an offence legally if I did not take medication.  Not only that, they wanted to take over my finances as well.  At the time I was a private secretary to the Managing Director of a well known import/export company.  I went to see a doctor I knew well who had been treating me in Public Mental Health and had gone into private practise (long story in the interim).  He thought the conclusion of the doctors was near on madness re me not taking medication.  He knew I did not lie, even to my own detriment at times he had experienced.  If I said I did not cease medication, he knew, then I had not done so.  Years further down the line it was realised in PMH that for some reason, medication would work for me for a while, but then would not - and the medication needed changing.  Even then, psychotic episodes were not avoided.  Content of those fearful episodes is an entirely different story and a very long one indeed.

However, at the time, I had to hire a lawyer to appear for me at the Mental Health Tribunal (re order brought against me).  The Tribunal would not listen to me (long story there too).  I went to an investigative reporter on a well known newspaper here in Adelaide.  He said that if I decided to take my case to the Supreme Court to return to him and he would write my story and make it public.  I rang my family and told them what I had done and they then dropped the order.  In the interim my lawyer introduced me to a barrister (we were going to take it to the Supreme Court) who told me he would work for me for free in the Supreme Court - he believed that much in my story.

Another thing I experienced more than once was the absolute non understanding nor compassion of more than one priest as I tried to come to grips spiritually with what happened during an episode (this was during my well periods between episodes).  I rarely talk about this because while I came across a few priests who upset me terribly and were no help whatsoever increasing I was suffering immensely, I know more priests who eventually I came across who helped me understand my moral situation during an episode and we became good friends.  One of the other kind of priests told me that he did not want to even hear the word "mental illness" let alone discuss it - and he was fairly high up in diocesan offices.  Another priest I rang seeking an appointment, simply hung up the phone when I mentioned I had a mental illness.  And more than those two instances re my problems (past tense) with some priests, far much more.

While I was ill, I was desperately trying to understand what on earth was happening while I was ill. 

I was advised by Public Mental Health to leave the Catholic Church and join the Anglican Church because the Anglican Church had a better understanding of MI.  I refused to do so.  I was labelled by PMH as having "an irresponsible attitude towards my illness".

 

[<3 PopeFrancis]

14 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I would venture to say that probably every sufferer of certainly serious mental illness knows what it is to have their dignity torn away and obliterated.

You are correct of course in that only God knows for sure any actual moral position whatsoever (for anyone) before Him, the problem is that sufferers of mental illness need understanding etc. on the human level just like any other human being - and perhaps MI sufferers need it somewhat more so.  It is known that support and support systems is absolutely vital on the road towards mental health and some sort of stability - if it is going to occur.

 For probably ten years into my twenty years of experiencing psychotic episodes, I was accused by my doctors (I was then in Public Mental Health) of not taking my medication because I would almost continually have psychotic episodes.  The doctors convinced my family I was not taking my medication.  As a result, my family was encouraged to bring an order against me to make it an offence legally if I did not take medication.  Not only that, they wanted to take over my finances as well.  At the time I was a private secretary to the Managing Director of a well known import/export company.  I went to see a doctor I knew well who had been treating me in Public Mental Health and had gone into private practise (long story in the interim).  He thought the conclusion of the doctors was near on madness re me not taking medication.  He knew I did not lie, even to my own detriment at times he had experienced.  If I said I did not cease medication, he knew, then I had not done so.  Years further down the line it was realised in PMH that for some reason, medication would work for me for a while, but then would not - and the medication needed changing.  Even then, psychotic episodes were not avoided.  Content of those fearful episodes is an entirely different story and a very long one indeed.

However, at the time, I had to hire a lawyer to appear for me at the Mental Health Tribunal (re order brought against me).  The Tribunal would not listen to me (long story there too).  I went to an investigative reporter on a well known newspaper here in Adelaide.  He said that if I decided to take my case to the Supreme Court to return to him and he would write my story and make it public.  I rang my family and told them what I had done and they then dropped the order.  In the interim my lawyer introduced me to a barrister (we were going to take it to the Supreme Court) who told me he would work for me for free in the Supreme Court - he believed that much in my story.

Another thing I experienced more than once was the absolute non understanding nor compassion of more than one priest as I tried to come to grips spiritually with what happened during an episode (this was during my well periods between episodes).  I rarely talk about this because while I came across a few priests who upset me terribly and were no help whatsoever increasing I was suffering immensely, I know more priests who eventually I came across who helped me understand my moral situation during an episode and we became good friends.  One of the other kind of priests told me that he did not want to even hear the word "mental illness" let alone discuss it - and he was fairly high up in diocesan offices.  Another priest I rang seeking an appointment, simply hung up the phone when I mentioned I had a mental illness.  And more than those two instances re my problems (past tense) with some priests, far much more.

While I was ill, I was desperately trying to understand what on earth was happening while I was ill. 

I was advised by Public Mental Health to leave the Catholic Church and join the Anglican Church because the Anglican Church had a better understanding of MI.  I refused to do so.  I was labelled by PMH as having "an irresponsible attitude towards my illness".

 

It is very degrading the way you were treated by everyone -like Our Lord.  I don't know how to say how much I feel towards your situation.  I am so sorry; however, I commend the bravery you showed to yourself and Our Lord when a "way out" was offered.  God bless you, BarbaraTherese.

I hope I did not offend mental illness sufferers and I am sorry and stand corrected if I did.

[Guest]

It is oh so easy to sit in some sort of judgement on sufferers of mental illness - and equally as nasty to be patronizing and condescending.  In fact, I have a saying for myself settled on many years ago: "Thank goodness that You, Lord, are my Judge in Truth and not my fellow human beings".  I have learnt over a very long journey to not let human criticism (of any status) etc. upset my apple cart.  It is water off a duck's back to me.  But I will fiercely stand up for myself and for sufferers - and in the interests of truth and Truth.

A prayer would be appreciated.  I am trying to find a way to 'get into' Public Mental Health as a volunteer (sufferers can even be paid in some cases, but I am not looking for payment).  My problem is that when I twice turned upside down their application against me to The Mental Health Tribunal, I developed a 'black mark' as it were against me.  I am not their favourite by a very long shot.  What I would like to do in Public Mental Health as a volunteer, if i can, is be supportive to fellow patients and do what I can for them - even if just a pack of cigarettes and advice where they can go on psychiatric grounds to have a smoke hidden from staff eyes........or it used to be and I hope still is.

I need my finances back to normal for obvious reasons above, including that I might need to catch taxis.

As soon as I am clear of current financial problems due to vet's fees for Buddie, I am going to try again to contact our Catholic Mental Health Chaplain.  For some reason, this person is very difficult indeed to contact.  In fact two past attempts failed.  I can't even find out in diocesan offices if we actually have one.  Perhaps he or she (if they exist) could do with some volunteer assistance and I can get into PMH under the PMH radar, or even if not, then to get into PMH with the authority of The Church as a Catholic volunteer - which they cannot challenge simply because I have been a "disturbing influence".   They were wrong in their attempt to bring an order with the Mental Health Tribunal against me (including the one my family attempted).  They were wrong and I was able to disprove their so called 'evidence' with witnesses to the contrary - not only this but if in trouble with PMH of any kind, I now have a lawyer who will work for me for free.  Not only that, nowadays I never do anything either morally or socially wrong or questionable in honesty on the PMH level.  May The Good Lord keep me and all safe in His Works as His Will may determine. Amen

Probably said too much............c'est la vie

 

29 minutes ago, <3 PopeFrancis said:

It is very degrading the way you were treated by everyone -like Our Lord.  I don't know how to say how much I feel towards your situation.  I am so sorry; however, I commend the bravery you showed to yourself and Our Lord when a "way out" was offered.  God bless you, BarbaraTherese.

I hope I did not offend mental illness sufferers and I am sorry and stand corrected if I did.

Nah, you're ok, 3PF!  Mind you, if sufferers did tell their stories, most all would cause one's hair to stand up - and not only sufferers of MI, I know.  I thank you for the opportunity to sound off and in the hope that something or other might click into place with readers and in the interests of sufferers of MI generally.  If not, it feels good to have posted, writing is cathartic for me on all fronts.

[Guest]

Hi again @<3 PopeFrancis, I did not see your post quoted above, until after I had posted - hence your quote above and my reply was actually an edit after I had posted. 

Hope that makes sense!

Edited September 30, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[<3 PopeFrancis]

43 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Hi again @<3 PopeFrancis, I did not see your post quoted above, until after I had posted - hence your quote above and my reply was actually an edit after I had posted. 

Hope that makes sense!

Tr does.  Thank you for sharing your amazing testimony -your witness to Jesus -your personal Cross. God bless you, BarbaraTherese.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, <3 PopeFrancis said:

I've always wondered what people with mental illnesses are accountable for for example the Colorado shootings etc. or on a daily scale.

 

I think it takes a psychiatrist to assess culpability at the time.  Certainly for me even during a psychotic episode the whole of my moral perception was not always totally distorted, rather some of it sometimes.  Was I psychotic? Yes I would have been.  Did I know right from wrong? To a degree at varying times I did.   Very confusing to a normal mind I know.  I am also aware that my experience is not general experience.  Probably every type/brand of mental illness has similarities and also some features might be unique to the sufferer.

A bipolar episode most often has a lead up time to psychotic state and it can be weeks, even months, during which the sufferer functions ok in the community, the problems experienced are interior as it were while a psychiatrist might be able to identify a "lead up time". Although my files state that I "very often presented well", though I was literally slowly going out my mind as it were. Time and again, I would take myself off to hospital because I knew I was unwell and afraid of an episode, but would not be admitted to hospital or a ward.  Some time later (going through hell) I would be re-admitted totally psychotic and out of touch with reality.  Immediately prior almost to psychosis, common sense and caution or prudence went, followed then by knowledge of what was real or unreal.  At the height of psychosis for me I feel safe to state that my reality, my total reality experience, was non reality.   Although lack of common sense, caution, knowledge could become mixed, bit of this, bit of that, more of that less of this.   Most difficult to explain and again not necessarily general experience.

 During my own illness, I was never aggressive nor threatening to any person at any time whether I was well or ill.  Threatened? Yes, but not in my mind by human beings -  in what psychiatry calls a delusional state.  I was most always detained in a psychiatric ward or hospital for my own protection rather than to protect the community from me.  I was never violent in any way at all, nor threatened same.  I was tremendously vulnerable during an episode.  Terrified and unable to think straight.

It takes a psychiatrist, I think, applying himself or herself to an individual case to state for some degree of certainty insofar as medical science is concerned whether a sufferer of psychosis was at any point capable of recognizing right from wrong.

Very thankfully, Deo Gratius, I have a really good private psychiatrist who can listen to me in my groping sort of language and understand from  a psychiatric perspective what it is I am trying to say.

Difficult (I think) for me as the sufferer or "the witness" to explain in ordinary everyday type of language that normal non-psychiatric minds can grasp what I am on about.

 

49 minutes ago, <3 PopeFrancis said:

Tr does.  Thank you for sharing your amazing testimony -your witness to Jesus -your personal Cross. God bless you, BarbaraTherese.

Thank you, <PF.  I am very much aware that whatever I went through is mild compared to what some endure either episodically or, what is a far more terrible state, 24hrs of every single day.  That knowledge is truly humbling.  Knowing what I do, so very many carry tremendous crosses and sufferings in life without realising that they do and our theology supporting it.  They do not know that consolation that Faith and our theology can really be, especially of suffering in this instance. My belief is that though they have not been gifted with understanding, come Heaven we will be very surprised indeed who are wearing the most beautiful of crowns of all....as it were.  It can be easy to forget perhaps that life does not end at our departing this earth as I scramble for this passing crown or that passing crown here on earth.

Gee <PF, please do not take to heart every word I have said as addressed to you personally.  Truth is, I have used your thread with abandon to really and truly sound off very generally on the subject of MI - and most all comments of mine are in no way directed at you nor anything you have posted.

__________________

We had major storms here in Adelaide Wednesday night and last night.  Wednesday night the whole of South Australia power supply went down.  Ever since I am having computer problems including that it is moving exceptionally slow.  I am in contact with Optus.

[CatherineM]

The lack of understanding by priests is something we have been actively working on for years. Speaking to seminarians and lay formation students every new cycle. My recently accepted masters thesis was on the pastoral care of schizophrenics. It's hard especially with foreign priests