Heaven

[Quasar]

1 hour ago, LittleWaySoul said:

I am not fundamentally satisfied with anything this earth has to offer. I think that I am at times; I run after what I think will make me happy. But when I get it, it never truly fulfills my desire for wholeness, peace, or communion. I would lose hope very quickly if I stopped believing that there is a God and an afterlife. 

I can understand that.  OTOH it's not intellectually satisfying to me to accept an idea only because it makes me feel good.  It makes me feel good, therefore it's true... that doesn't work for me.  It is easier for me to simply accept on faith, because it's the teaching of the Church.

However, I think that your sense of wanting something more than this world has to offer, points to us having been made for more than this world.

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by Quasar

[Jack4]

 

Quote

 

esse sequitur operationem et operationem sequitur esse. That is, the sort of thing a thing does follows upon its way of existing, so we can understand its way of existing by the sort of thing it does.

 

It order to posit some existence apart from matter, there must be some operation or action of the thing that is separable from matter. While there are degrees of immateriality with sensation, imagination, memory, etc, all of these necessarily involve matter, as they are powers of some organ (in all animals, including men and cats)

 

Only one faculty of man has an operation separable from matter, namely the intellect (and following upon it the will). By intellect we understand not imagination, memory or the estimative (or cognitive sense in man), which high animals have (thus they can "learn" and exhibit some "intelligence" as the term is wont to be used in modern studies), but we understand the grasp of intelligible forms, which are only apprehended abstracted from every condition of matter. While we indeed think about them using our imagination/memory, the actual apprehension of them is necessarily apart from matter. Therefore, there is an operation separable from matter, and hence we can reason a principle of existence separable.

 

 

[Quasar]

Jack, I consider the intellect to be a function of the brain.  How do you conceptualize it?

[PhuturePriest]

LittleWaySoul poses a similar answer to mine. I have a yearning desire which this life simply cannot fulfill, and like a thirst for water, it stands to reason I don't have some weird random desire for something which doesn't exist. No goal I have ever ardently desired and then accomplished ever gave me the happiness and fulfillment I thought it would. The closest thing I have ever had to that has been through prayer and charitable acts.

[A Yearning Heart]

1 hour ago, PhuturePriest said:

LittleWaySoul poses a similar answer to mine. I have a yearning desire which this life simply cannot fulfill, and like a thirst for water, it stands to reason I don't have some weird random desire for something which doesn't exist. No goal I have ever ardently desired and then accomplished ever gave me the happiness and fulfillment I thought it would. The closest thing I have ever had to that has been through prayer and charitable acts.

 

This is it! (when looking beyond the intellectual answer and straight to the heart of things...) 

Ps 62: "like a dry weary land without water"

[Jack4]

1 hour ago, A Yearning Heart said:

 

This is it! (when looking beyond the intellectual answer and straight to the heart of things...) 

Ps 62: "like a dry weary land without water"

The intellectual answer leads to the heart of things, right? 

2 hours ago, Quasar said:

Jack, I consider the intellect to be a function of the brain.  How do you conceptualize it?

Can you explain further? 

[A Yearning Heart]

I often have trouble expressing my thoughts, particularly in text, but will give it ago.  

I don't mean to separate intellect and the heart, as in reality they do interact. 

I originally posted an answer about my belief in heaven being based on Scripture, Doctrine (that is, on what I have been taught, on the intellectual level). I didn't think more deeply on it.  The posts by LittleWaySoul and PhuturePriest, however, really resonated with me. That it is our ongoing desire for something more than the world can give that suggests there really is something more. St Augustine writes that 'our hearts are restless, O Lord, until they rest in you'. While I haven't experienced heaven, I can definitely confirm this restlessness, this desire for more, for something else. I haven't intellectually thought up this desire, it is something that I experience even with many blessings and good things in life. We're taught that heaven is where God dwells and that God wants us to be with Him. Taken together with this desire for something more, heaven is where God is and is where I will be completely fulfilled.          

[Peace]

6 hours ago, Quasar said:

Jack, I consider the intellect to be a function of the brain.  How do you conceptualize it?

Hmm. From a Catholic perspective I think that the intellect is more of a power of the soul than a function of the brain. Moral questions such as "is it wrong for me to kill", "should I love my neighbor?" or "will I obey or disobey God?" are questions that our soul considers and answers. Animals, who also have brains, are incapable of making moral decisions because they do not have souls (in the same sense that humans do).

But I am not sure exactly how our intellect interacts with our brains, as far as memory, controlling our bodies, etc. is concerned.

[Jack4]

6 minutes ago, Peace said:

Animals, who also have brains, are incapable of making moral decisions because they do not have souls (in the same sense that humans do).

Souls of animals are not rational. Souls of animals are not immortal.  But they are true souls nonetheless, true forms of their bodies.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Jack4

[LittleWaySoul]

13 hours ago, Quasar said:

I can understand that.  OTOH it's not intellectually satisfying to me to accept an idea only because it makes me feel good.  It makes me feel good, therefore it's true... that doesn't work for me.  It is easier for me to simply accept on faith, because it's the teaching of the Church.

However, I think that your sense of wanting something more than this world has to offer, points to us having been made for more than this world.

Fair enough. After studying philosophy and theology for four years in a formal setting, I've found that while academic arguments are definitely important, I am personally moved to belief more by my own life experience. I also believe that testimony to one's belief through life experience can often be a more effective evangelization method than mere academic apologeticism.

That being said, there is a more academic formulation of my reason, one which FP touched on a bit. I simply wished to respond from my point of view rather than from one that I thought might convince others. 

[Peace]

1 hour ago, Jack4 said:

Souls of animals are not rational. Souls of animals are not immortal.  But they are true souls nonetheless, true forms of their bodies.

Alrighty.

[Jack4]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

Alrighty.

In case I was not clear, I was only building up on what you said.  

[Jack4]

3 hours ago, LittleWaySoul said:

After studying philosophy and theology for four years in a formal setting, I've found that while academic arguments are definitely important, I am personally moved to belief more by my own life experience. I also believe that testimony to one's belief through life experience can often be a more effective evangelization method than mere academic apologeticism.

That being said, there is a more academic formulation of my reason, one which FP touched on a bit. I simply wished to respond from my point of view rather than from one that I thought might convince others. 

Unlike you, I have not the slightest formal education in the field, so pardon my errors.  

 

Quasar, I believe, misunderstood you, and that is very natural. Not a fault of his, not a fault of yours either. The thing is, many people take your position to a great extreme. (*cough*cough* "The Holy Spirit inspired me with this new interpretation of Scripture, so I'm founding a new Church" *cough*cough*) 

 

There are some others who deny Hell because they don't "like" it. I know you know that the Truths found by reason and Church teaching have much greater weight than gut feeling. Otherwise, mystics who experience dark night of the soul should leave the Church! 

Edited September 25, 2016 by Jack4

[Quasar]

4 hours ago, Peace said:

Hmm. From a Catholic perspective I think that the intellect is more of a power of the soul than a function of the brain. Moral questions such as "is it wrong for me to kill", "should I love my neighbor?" or "will I obey or disobey God?" are questions that our soul considers and answers. Animals, who also have brains, are incapable of making moral decisions because they do not have souls (in the same sense that humans do).

But I am not sure exactly how our intellect interacts with our brains, as far as memory, controlling our bodies, etc. is concerned.

I don't know how the interaction plays out, either, but people with brain injuries or brain diseases sometimes have impaired intellectual abilities, sometimes including what we would consider impaired moral decision making.  So this tells me that the intellect isn't entirely separate from the material, organic world of biology.

[Quasar]

4 hours ago, LittleWaySoul said:

 I am personally moved to belief more by my own life experience.

Yes, this is what I was hoping to get from people, experiences in their lives or in the lives of others that persuaded them to believe.  I don't think life experience is illogical or an intellectual crutch at all.  My concern with the argument that a belief in heaven makes us feel good therefore it's true, other than not finding it persuasive, is that I've heard often the argument that people of faith are somehow weak minded and only believe because they need to believe.  So, I do not like to think of people of faith as only believing something because it makes them feel good to believe.  About half of my extended family is atheist or agnostic, so I've heard my share of these untrue comments.