Rap Music

[BeenaBobba]

A question to the opponents of rap music: What are these "bad passions" that you think Catholic rap incites in listeners? I listen to Catholic rap without feeling lustful or anything like that, and can all of these "passions" in Catholic rap music really be separated from emotion?

I think the argument that the beat incites lust by imitating sexual intercourse is absurd. Poetry often has an abrupt, driving rhythm, but is that to say that poetry is wrong?

Just my thoughts...

God bless,

Jennifer

[BeenaBobba]

Another thing: What would you say if the [b]lyrics[/b] required intellectual engagement? (I don't think the melody is the only aspect of music that speaks to the intellect.) The lyrics in Catholic rap require the intellect to a degree, I'd say. Second of all, above the intellectual aspect of music, there can be a spiritual aspect. If something points to God, then there is a positive spiritual aspect to music. I believe that Catholic music points to God. It does for me, and for several others, and I think the positive spiritual aspect of Catholic rap would trump all other aspects.

God bless,

Jennifer

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jul 7 2004, 02:29 AM'] This thread is giving me flashbacks of Footloose. [/quote]
:rotfl:

[Pope Saint Pius V]

First, if Dust or the others had actually read my post, they would have seen that I said, I'd like to offer "a" proof, not the proof or proof in general. Second, no one responded to my intellectual argument before. If, as at least one of you was willing to admit, melody, harmony and rythm correspond to intellect, emotions, and passions then if thats upset (i.e. rythm or harmony has predominance) then its disordered. It emphasizes the passions over the intellect or the emotions over the intellect. That was the real argument, but only Amarchik was intellectually honest enough to pick up on that. You have no answer and yes, regardless of what you say, that is the natural way of responding to that music, to dance like a freak without any culture. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 7 2004, 09:17 AM'] If, as at least one of you was willing to admit, melody, harmony and rythm correspond to intellect, emotions, and passions then if thats upset (i.e. rythm or harmony has predominance) then its disordered. It emphasizes the passions over the intellect or the emotions over the intellect. [/quote]
I'm having a hard time understanding your "proof". Are you saying that if music invokes passion or emotion over intellect, then it's disordered? Or if rythm has predominance over intellect, it's disordered? Where is this defined? If you can please show me where the Church defines this as disordered, I'd appreciate it.

[Pope Saint Pius V]

Dust, the Church does not have the time to define things that Catholics merely one hundred years ago understood since they weren't immersed in secular society. The Church does not have to define things since philosophy can teach us things to. In much of what St. Thomas taught, the Church has never defined, since it did not deal with Sacred Theology, but rather with philosophy. While the Church has a claim to protect against false philosophy, she doesn't have to state these things. Rather, the philosophers have always since the time of Aristotle taught these things. It is human nature. For a thing to be intrinsically evil, it can merely be a disorder against the nature of man. That man's passions ought not rule his intellect is self-evident and the Church doesn't have to define that for it to be the case. Yet, they do teach this in many catechisms. Music scholars who are well aquainted with philosophy and human nature, not merely musicians, have taught the correspondence of these things. If thats the case, then a music emphasizing a disordered relationship between man's faculties, makes the music intrinsically disordered, i.e. evil.

[Pope Saint Pius V]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jul 6 2004, 04:24 PM'] PSPV, Amarkich - would you consider this sample intrinsically evil?

Real Audio:
[url="http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/061705/061705_01_08_30.ram"]http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/3...05_01_08_30.ram[/url]

or .WAV format if you prefer:
[url="http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/061705/061705_01_08_30.wav"]http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/3...05_01_08_30.wav[/url] [/quote]
Yes, Dust, I do find that to be intrinsically disordered. But I have a further reflection about the music. It is disgusting. They have taken traditional beautiful chant and added base rythms that leave one wanting to gyrate their hips as if in some strange African tribal festivity. They have taken what is good and made it base, which is far worse than merely making bad music.

[cmotherofpirl]

Must be in your mind. I had no urge to move any parts of my anatomy. I was intrigued by the interesting juxtaposition of musical styles.

[akamarymag]

[quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 7 2004, 09:17 AM'] If, as at least one of you was willing to admit, melody, harmony and rythm correspond to intellect, emotions, and passions then if thats upset (i.e. rythm or harmony has predominance) then its disordered. It emphasizes the passions over the intellect or the emotions over the intellect. That was the real argument, but only Amarchik was intellectually honest enough to pick up on that. You have no answer and yes, regardless of what you say, that is the natural way of responding to that music, to dance like a freak without any culture. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. [/quote]
i kinda c what your talking about on this, hear me out yalls, last summer all i did was ( i dont wanna say freak dance in clubs) party to hip hop and rap and what not. I can tell u that the message in [u]those particular songs [/u] mixed with my hormones ( and impulsiveness) [b][u]seemed to be [/u][/b] what made me act that way. Im not saying that the music made me behave that way, im denying that. IM saying that I chose to behave that way out of my free will. I think that ( and i have no backup on this) when an artests passion and a listiners passion are the same, the temptation tepmtation to do whatever may be stronger. For exampele: If an artests passion is lust and the listiners passion matches that the temptation may be greater than if the artests passion was lust and the littiners passion was say, cheeze cake ( YUM!) that would be the case if say a Catrholic Rapper's passion was Christ and a listiners passion was Christ the temptation to praise God would b greater then if the listiners passion was lust. Its a matter of free will. Im not going to sit here and say that certain music is disorderd due to a combination of what not that "makes" us act a certain way, we chose our conduct out of free will, our conduct may be disorderly but not nessicerly the music. an artests/listiners passion may be disorderly but im nto gonna blame it on the music. Music's way to buetiful for that abouse. I will say that i perfer not to liston to secular modern day rap or hip hop that mainstream ( mainstream artests have come a LONG way) i really dont think its fair to bash a whole gonre of history of music just because of whats on the radio today. Rap and HIp HOp are deeper then that. ( Catholic hip hop ish as deep and as real as it gets).


and as for the natural way to respond to "that kind" of music.1)its not natural for everyone to dance like a freak. 2) keep your smoke and pipe to yourself 3)not everyone ish faced with the same temptation. 4) read this James 1:14 5) God bless u Pope Saint Pius V

[Aloysius]

I didn't have any urge to do anything but sway. is swaying wrong?

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]If, as at least one of you was willing to admit, melody, harmony and rythm correspond to intellect, emotions, and passions then if thats upset (i.e. rythm or harmony has predominance) then its disordered. It emphasizes the passions over the intellect or the emotions over the intellect. That was the real argument, but only Amarchik was intellectually honest enough to pick up on that. You have no answer and yes, regardless of what you say, that is the natural way of responding to that music, to dance like a freak without any culture. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.[/quote]

Quite honestly, I am kind of shocked. Even disregarding the final sentence, which serves only to weaken credibility in an intellectual conversation, as well as being not only uncharitable, but also offensive, I have a great many rubuttles. First, PSPV, I am assuming that I am the person to whom you are refering in your first sentence. If you bothered to read my post, not only did I "recognise" your argument, but I addressed it.

To claim that the only factors which influence music are rhythm, harmony, and melody is to say that the only things that influence painting are colors. In painting, style (impressionist, cubist, drybrush, etc), creativity, skill, and detail all play just as much, if not more, of a role than colors. In the same way, [i]as I pointed out[/i] the mode (ie instruments of choice) as well as the way in which they are used play just as serious, if not more serious a role. Moreover, [i]as I pointed out[/i] even "evil" music can be used to accentuate harmonic melodies.

Also, just to counter your most fundamental premise: disorder = evil. You are incorrect to say that Aquinas believed this. Aquinas believed that accidental disorder is not evil, while natural disorder is. That is to say, that which is disordered [i]by its nature[/i] is evil (i.e. sin, homosexuality, etc). However, he would never have said that accidental disorder is evil (disease, natural disaster, infertility, etc). Thus, for your argument to be consistant with Aquinas, you must prove that "Rap" is disordered [i]by its nature[/i]. In order to do this with even a remote degree of legitimacy, you must address [i]all[/i] of the factors that make up what is "Rap."

Ironically, this brings us back to my initial point, and, you will be happy to hear, I have already provided a basis upon which you might attempt to do this. My previous post, which, much to my own disappointment, has been circumvented up until now, outlined a series of other factors, most notably choice/effect of instruments and application thereof, that are fundamental to the nature of Rap music.

If your argument seeks any degree of credibility, you should address those points immediately.

[b]I would kindly ask that no further posts or responses be made until either amarkich, PSPV or PSPX have responded to the points that I have brought up in my many previous posts.[/b]

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[dUSt]

[quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 7 2004, 10:58 AM'] They have taken traditional beautiful chant and added base rythms that leave one wanting to gyrate their hips as if in some strange African tribal festivity. [/quote]
Please don't take this the wrong way, but if that sample made you want to gyrate your hips, then quite frankly, I think that's a personal issue. I say that in the most charitable manner possible.

[dUSt]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 7 2004, 12:24 PM'] [b]I would kindly ask that no further posts or responses be made until either amarkich, PSPV or PSPX have responded to the points that I have brought up in my many previous posts.[/b] [/quote]
Well, it's up to Amarkich now (for at least 2 weeks anyway). All the others have been suspended for reasons that I don't want to make public.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jul 7 2004, 12:34 PM'] Well, it's up to Amarkich now (for at least 2 weeks anyway). All the others have been suspended for reasons that I don't want to make public. [/quote]
PSP[b]V[/b] as well?

[BeenaBobba]

Hi PSPV,

I addressed the main thesis of your objection against rap music. I asked you further questions.

God bless,

Jen