BeenaBobba Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jul 1 2004, 12:46 AM'] [b]You could allow your kids to have fun and bang pots and pans, while in the mean time earn some "out of purgatory" tickets! That's right. Offer it up. Make it a prayer. Offer your own physical discomfort for the glory of God. The fact that you get all riled up over kids banging pots leads me to think that there is not much of a problem with the noise as there is with your own will.[/b] There is truth to this. I have no patience. I admit it. However, the situation is not as bleak as I may have made it sound. I kids have plenty of noice making fun. That being said, the "offer it up" section brings to mind a further point. You are confusing seperate issues: Things that are good in themselves, things that are "good" but should be sacrificed for a higher good, and things that are bad but should be tolerated for "the good". No one would question that the "pots and pans" senario is at least in one of the last two. I would suggest that it is inthe last. No one would claim that the noice created by banging poits and pans is "ideal." Nary a soul I know would say that it breeds anything less than chaos. Chaos is not ideal. It may be benefiacial to tolerate it, but it is not ideal. Could it be offered up (and take ttime off purgatory)? Sure. So could being stoned to death. Does that mean it is good in itself? My physical discomfort (or mental?) is not ideal. It is something tolerated for a higher good. As far as my not taking advantage of the ample opportunities to reduce my time in purgatory (if I should even make it there), well, guilty as charged. You're right!. I don't. Does that make chaotic noise edifying? NO! I get to this more in a moment. [/quote] Jake, your post was excellent! PSPX addressed this to you, and I'm sure you're going to answer it, but I'd like to add my two cents, too, if that's all right with you. I'd say that banging on pots and pans is good. It's good for the development of a child. It doesn't sound too great to some people, but it's still good. Some people cannot sleep in the same room with a ticking clock. The sound of the clock is enough to drive them bonkers, yet it doesn't bother all people. This brings in the subjective nature of what people like in terms of sound. To you, you might find the sound of your children banging on pots and pans to be unbearably annoying. Others might not mind it. Either way, this has nothing to do with whether banging on pots and pans is good or bad. If the noise is good for children, and if it can be beneficial to you (in offering up your annoyance), as it can be, then banging on pots and pans could be edifying. If it brings you closer to God, it's edifying. It's as simple as that. Offering up your suffering brings you closer to God; ergo, hearing the banging of pots and pans can definitely be edifying, for both you and your little ones. [quote]This all quite irrelevant. Bacon and eggs? Are you serious? [/quote] Hey, you never know. There are some strange people out there. God created certain insects that can make annoying buzzing sounds. I can say that the constant buzzing of the bee is annoying, but is it inherently bad? Well, you have to ask yourself this: Does God create things that are inherently bad? You can say that banging on pots and pans, as an example, would be dis-edifying, but you cannot say that it's inherently dis-edifying. I'd apply the same thing to your dislike of rap music. And like Jake's said (I think it was Jake who's said this), there are different smells. Are certain smells inherently bad? If not, why do you apply a different standard to music, which all boils down to sound waves? God bless, Jennifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Hi PSPX (again), What I disagree with, primarily, regarding your argument is that you're trying to elevate something that is largely subjective to the level of objective truth. Imagine I was listening to Beethoven. There are some compositions of his that I like more than others. One piece could be "tolerable" or "bad" to me, but you could love it. There could be a piece of classical music that I'd personally find annoying, or personally dis-edifying (to use your argument), but that certainly does not mean that it's inherently bad. It'd just mean that I would't like it, which is subjective. God bless, Jennifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 To add to the sounds some people find annoying and other people don't.... My wife can't sleep without noise. She has to have a fan on, or the TV on, or radio, or something. She cannot sleep when there is total silence. I, on the other hand, find most of these things annoying as I'm trying to fall asleep. Different strokes for different folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 lol, I'm not gonna try to bring this convo back to topic, so im gonna join the bandwagon and take it in a THIRD direction, lol: dude, Azriel, do you still play? I'd love to talk music sometime, particularly bass! It makes me wonder how many musicians are on Phatmass to begin with... Feel free to post here or just shoot me a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 BeenaBobba, Thanks for your post. It was most edifying. I actually wasn't going to resond, but I'm glad that you did. Whenever I spend the night at my grandparents I MUST request that they put their cookoo clock to sleep with me. LOL. I cannot stand the ticking! I suppose I should take a cup of my own medicine. Hahaha. Great points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Suddenly we have gone to "let's list souds that annoy us." How is this relevent? Or have we officially ditched the thread topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Beenabobba, The topic of this thread is rap music. This is music intentionally produced by rational beings as a good. This is nearly incomparable to the beaver dam pots and pans example which is produced by a toddler (hardly a rational creature) for the simple reason that it seems like the thing to do at the time. One could almost say that it is "accidental." The child has no clue what he is doing. He just knows that it is fun to make loud noise with pots and pans. We are discussing adults and what they produce. This is my last attempt at getting this thread back on target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 I am too lazy to read the entire thread, did you refute Dust yet? [heading the thread back to target] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 1 2004, 03:34 PM'] I am too lazy to read the entire thread, did you refute Dust yet? [heading the thread back to target] [/quote] I second this motion. One way to get a thread back on track is to respond to the arguments presented. Wacky idea, I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 What a novel idea Hey clean your out mail box so I can PM you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jul 1 2004, 05:24 PM'] The topic of this thread is rap music. This is music intentionally produced by rational beings as a good. This is nearly incomparable to the beaver dam pots and pans example which is produced by a toddler (hardly a rational creature) for the simple reason that it seems like the thing to do at the time. One could almost say that it is "accidental." The child has no clue what he is doing. He just knows that it is fun to make loud noise with pots and pans. [/quote] Hi PSPX, You have to remember that music is just complex sounds. There are some sounds from nature or whatever that annoy some people and not others. I brought that up because I think it's comparable to rap music in that some people like rap and others don't. Still, that's hardly a reason to say that rap music is inherently bad. From what I've gathered so far from this thread, you think rap music is dis-edifying because you don't think it sounds as good as classical music, and because you think that it has bad effects on the soul. To prove that rap music is objectively wrong, however, you'd need to quote the Church. I don't recall you doing so, and to the best of my knowledge, there are no Church documents dissing rap music. If you wanted to say that classical music is superior to rap music, I wouldn't have much of a problem with that, even though I like rap. But you're trying to say that rap music is inherently bad, and I think that your points have been unsubstantiated. Where is your proof that the points you've been making are objective and not subjective? The burden of proof is on you, my friend. I could say this to you (or to anyone else): "Mozart's music is inherently better than Beethoven's music," but if I were to say that, would it be any more than my subjective opinion? When you say that rap music is inherently bad, how is that any more than your subjective opinion? Many people here, myself included, say that Catholic rap can be edifying. Do you really think that we're lying, or that we don't know ourselves and what is edifying to us? God bless, Jennifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jul 1 2004, 02:24 PM'] Beenabobba, The topic of this thread is rap music. This is music intentionally produced by rational beings as a good. This is nearly incomparable to the beaver dam pots and pans example which is produced by a toddler (hardly a rational creature) for the simple reason that it seems like the thing to do at the time. One could almost say that it is "accidental." The child has no clue what he is doing. He just knows that it is fun to make loud noise with pots and pans. We are discussing adults and what they produce. This is my last attempt at getting this thread back on target. [/quote] Please refrane from swearing in your posts... especially when you are posting to women. God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Hi PSPX, Just so you know, I've read your post on musical composition; and my response to that is that classical music is composed in a way that is different from rap music or rock music. Your post basically said that because rock music is "inverted," it is wrong. What makes you think that the way classical music was written was the "right" way to compose music? That's a presupposition on your part. Different does not necessarily equal wrong. If there is rhythm in music, there is usually some sort of mathematical harmony. If there wasn't any mathematical harmony in rap music, it'd be tantamount to nails on the chalkboard -- and that's not the case at all. God bless, Jennifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 Beena Bobba and others. Pope St. Pius X has asked me to advise that his forthcoming response can not be posted for 2 weeks due to unexpected lack of access to the site. Please be patient and he will respond as able. peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 Thanks for letting me know, Pedro. God bless, Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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