Rap Music

[dUSt]

Jeff - Awesome job with your post. I agree with it all.

[dUSt]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 30 2004, 01:35 PM'] jeff,

i would like you to substantiate or elaborate upon your claim that the role of the beat in rap music is to bring attention to the lyrics or the rapper.

thanks,
phatcatholic [/quote]
I think he's saying that in hip-hop, the instrumentals are used to elevate the message that the rapper is rapping. For the most part, this is true. While rock can be really focused on a guitar solo for example, in hip-hop, it is the rapper who is the central focus. One exception is the turtable solos, but even in this, in most cases, a message is being sent through the manipulation of certain words or sentences.

This is made apparent, for example, when in a rap song, there'll be a complete break in the instrumentals, and all you hear is the rapper--then the beat will cut back in. This technique is often used to emphasis certain phrases--again, putting the emphasis on the rapper's message.

So in hip-hop, the instrumentals are usually just the background with the vocals being the foreground, while in rock, the opposite is often the case.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Dust has already taken much of what I was going to say, but I can elaborate and expand as well.

As it has been stated already in this post, Rap, as a music style, tends to rely heavily on bass as the driving power behind the music. This is why:

Typically, if guitars are used in a rap song, it is in an arpeggio (finger-picking) style or impliments the use of an "alaska" pick, worn on the thumb (a more specific style of finger-picking). This guitar style tends to be significantly more subtle, and does not draw attention away from the rapper (that is why it is also the dominant force in folk music).

Sampling (DJing) can have a wide range of uses in terms of what it adds or detracts from the music, and typically (in a manner reminiscent of the call-and-response style) if the artist is in the process of rapping, the sampling is light, only to pick up when the vocals drop off. This helps draw attention to the rapper as well.

The Bass: I would like to spend a few moments addressing the role of the bass in rap songs, because it is a.) what you asked about, and b.) very important. If I can speak with authority on any of this, it is with regards to the bass, seeing as that is the instrument I love most and play best. A bass, unless in the hands of a very capable player, does little more than provide the backbone of the music - a very important job, I might add . It does not tend to be flashy, but rather, helps to accentuate those things that it accompanies, in order to increase their role in the music. In a guitar-bass duo, the bass allows the guitarist to play intricate solos and get a point across without having the listener lose the true feel and flavor of the song. In the case of a rapper, it provides the platform upon which his vocals stand and, as Dust pointed out, when the bass beat cuts out, it adds complete focus on the rapper. The role of the bass is to allow the vocalist (in the case of rapping) a little more lee-way than he would normally have, and to make it easier for him to make transitions. However, very rarely is the listeners attention focused on the bass itself - typically that occurs when someone plays a "slap-bass" style, which is rarely used in rap.

The end result is that the bass beat holds up the other aspects of the music so that the listener can pay more attention to them. In rock this is in the form of the guitar, in rap, the vocalist.

Hope that helps!

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[Jake Huether]

[quote]While technically I would not say that it is "dis-edifying" for them, as they have not yet reached the age of reason, it sure as hell pushes everyone else to the limit.[/quote]

Speaking on banging pans.

I'd like to actually refute you, and in addition take it a step beyond what dUSt commented.

I'd like to pose to you the idea that a child banging pots can actually be edifying. That's right. It can actually help you grow spiritually.

You could allow your kids to have fun and bang pots and pans, while in the mean time earn some "out of purgatory" tickets! That's right. Offer it up. Make it a prayer. Offer your own physical discomfort for the glory of God. The fact that you get all riled up over kids banging pots leads me to think that there is not much of a problem with the noise as there is with your own will.

St. Theresa the Little Flower would have LOVED this oportunity to offer to God these rose peddles.

You see, while you hear this "chaos" and it frustrates you, you vent and become angry. Your limit is pushed - as you put it. But who is at fault for the degradation of your spirit? The children? No. You said yourself they are under the age of reason. The pots and pans? No. They are nuetral items. The noize vibrations? No. The fault is with your own will. You allow your anger to overcome you. Is the crackling of bacon and eggs in the morning dis-edifying? It is random noise. If you were studying in the morning, trying to consentrate, this could drive you up the wall! But to me it is most edifying. It reminds me of my dad, how he used to cook us breakfast. And so I thank God for the memories of dad. Is a garbage truck dis-edifying when it wakes you up at 6am on a day off?

How about if you were rollerblading and fell and broke your arm. Would that be dis-edifying? Or what if you sat next to a lady at work who talked like the lady from "the Nany". Haha. Her vocal cords have got to be pretty chaotic. That could cause you big problems.

You cannot say that any certain noise, chaotic or not, is dis-edifying. It does nothing to the state of your soul. It cannot do anything to your soul. Physical noises can only cause physical discomfort to your body.

And depending on the disposition of your soul, you can take physical discomfort and vent and be angry, or you can offer it to God and rejoice in the flowers that you've given Him.

Therefore it isn't the off-beat soundwaves that damage your soul - or help your soul. It is your will, in the way you react to physical discomfort that is dis-edifying.

Music (or noise - if that is more fitting) is just physical sound waves. It can cause discomfort, it can cause comfort, it can bring memories and physical emotions to the surface, just like smells can (by the way, based on your analysis of music/sound, one would have to admit then that there are dis-edifying smells. Yet some of the foulest smells are God made, natural) - but sound waves don't effect your spirit. The way your will and the disposition of your mind interface with the physical sound, that effects your spirit.


That's just the thoughts that I had on the issue.

I'll butt out now.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jun 30 2004, 07:35 AM'] As I said, you completely misunderstood the point of my post (which was only half serious). You are making more of it than was intended. This thread is going on a pots and pans tangent.

I am the oldest of seven (my youngest sister being 7 years old) and now have two boys of my own. Trust me, I know all about clanging pots and pans and the apparent role of such activities in "Child development".

Now back on topic. [/quote]
I am the second oldest of 12, the youngest is 1 year old. I have a daughter and numerous cousins and nieces and nephews I have babysat since I was 13. The "big family" card does nothing for your argument.

You are the one who claimed that the child's "music" is dis-edifying. The simple fact of the matter is that your statement isn't true and signs of child development isn't comparable to hip-hop or supposedly "bad" music.

Jake, dUSt, Jeff, great posts!!!

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Jun 30 2004, 07:13 PM'] I am the second oldest of 12, the youngest is 1 year old. I have a daughter and numerous cousins and nieces and nephews I have babysat since I was 13. The "big family" card does nothing for your argument.

You are the one who claimed that the child's "music" is dis-edifying. The simple fact of the matter is that your statement isn't true and signs of child development isn't comparable to hip-hop or supposedly "bad" music.

Jake, dUSt, Jeff, great posts!!! [/quote]
Once again my dear, I did not claim that the child's music was dis-edifying. My post was (directed to dust mind you) only half serious. I was not using the "big family" card to support any argument. I was simply letting you know that I am not foreign to this sort of thing. It is a wonderful thing that you are from a large family. Congratulations. Join the club.

Your harping on this issue has become quite tiresome, as you (for the third time) have misunderstood my original post.

Let me say again: I WAS NOT MAKING AN ARGUMENT. I THOUGHT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN OBVIOUS. I WAS MISTAKEN. DROP IT.

[littleflower+JMJ]

join the club? i think her family was the one who founded it j/k

in fact when it comes to big catholic families i thnik katies is the one who qualifies

however i think it bought up alot of really good points, it was in a good correlation with each other


.....as the other great posts above from jake, etc did as well


God bless,
+JMJ+

[IcePrincessKRS]

Funny how someone can say something is "completely dis-edifying" and then deny it and yell at you to drop the subject.

(This "harping" is actually getting to be quite fun. )

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Jun 30 2004, 05:10 PM']
Speaking on banging pans.

I'd like to actually refute you, and in addition take it a step beyond what dUSt commented.

I'd like to pose to you the idea that a child banging pots can actually be edifying. That's right. It can actually help you grow spiritually.

You could allow your kids to have fun and bang pots and pans, while in the mean time earn some "out of purgatory" tickets! That's right. Offer it up. Make it a prayer. Offer your own physical discomfort for the glory of God. The fact that you get all riled up over kids banging pots leads me to think that there is not much of a problem with the noise as there is with your own will.

St. Theresa the Little Flower would have LOVED this oportunity to offer to God these rose peddles.

You see, while you hear this "chaos" and it frustrates you, you vent and become angry. Your limit is pushed - as you put it. But who is at fault for the degradation of your spirit? The children? No. You said yourself they are under the age of reason. The pots and pans? No. They are nuetral items. The noize vibrations? No. The fault is with your own will. You allow your anger to overcome you. Is the crackling of bacon and eggs in the morning dis-edifying? It is random noise. If you were studying in the morning, trying to consentrate, this could drive you up the wall! But to me it is most edifying. It reminds me of my dad, how he used to cook us breakfast. And so I thank God for the memories of dad. Is a garbage truck dis-edifying when it wakes you up at 6am on a day off?

How about if you were rollerblading and fell and broke your arm. Would that be dis-edifying? Or what if you sat next to a lady at work who talked like the lady from "the Nany". Haha. Her vocal cords have got to be pretty chaotic. That could cause you big problems.

You cannot say that any certain noise, chaotic or not, is dis-edifying. It does nothing to the state of your soul. It cannot do anything to your soul. Physical noises can only cause physical discomfort to your body.

And depending on the disposition of your soul, you can take physical discomfort and vent and be angry, or you can offer it to God and rejoice in the flowers that you've given Him.

Therefore it isn't the off-beat soundwaves that damage your soul - or help your soul. It is your will, in the way you react to physical discomfort that is dis-edifying.

Music (or noise - if that is more fitting) is just physical sound waves. It can cause discomfort, it can cause comfort, it can bring memories and physical emotions to the surface, just like smells can (by the way, based on your analysis of music/sound, one would have to admit then that there are dis-edifying smells. Yet some of the foulest smells are God made, natural) - but sound waves don't effect your spirit. The way your will and the disposition of your mind interface with the physical sound, that effects your spirit.


That's just the thoughts that I had on the issue.

I'll butt out now. [/quote]
Jake,

Very interesting. I have not yet fgured out this quote thing (as far as breaking it down and putting my commentary between statements) so I will just do it the old fashioned way. Your words in bold.

[b]You could allow your kids to have fun and bang pots and pans, while in the mean time earn some "out of purgatory" tickets! That's right. Offer it up. Make it a prayer. Offer your own physical discomfort for the glory of God. The fact that you get all riled up over kids banging pots leads me to think that there is not much of a problem with the noise as there is with your own will.[/b]

There is truth to this. I have no patience. I admit it. However, the situation is not as bleak as I may have made it sound. I kids have plenty of noice making fun. That being said, the "offer it up" section brings to mind a further point. You are confusing seperate issues: Things that are good in themselves, things that are "good" but should be sacrificed for a higher good, and things that are bad but should be tolerated for "the good". No one would question that the "pots and pans" senario is at least in one of the last two. I would suggest that it is inthe last. No one would claim that the noice created by banging poits and pans is "ideal." Nary a soul I know would say that it breeds anything less than chaos. Chaos is not ideal. It may be benefiacial to tolerate it, but it is not ideal. Could it be offered up (and take ttime off purgatory)? Sure. So could being stoned to death. Does that mean it is good in itself? My physical discomfort (or mental?) is not ideal. It is something tolerated for a higher good. As far as my not taking advantage of the ample opportunities to reduce my time in purgatory (if I should even make it there), well, guilty as charged. You're right!. I don't. Does that make chaotic noise edifying? NO! I get to this more in a moment.

[b]You see, while you hear this "chaos" and it frustrates you, you vent and become angry. Your limit is pushed - as you put it. But who is at fault for the degradation of your spirit? The children? No. You said yourself they are under the age of reason. The pots and pans? No. They are nuetral items. The noize vibrations? No. The fault is with your own will. You allow your anger to overcome you. Is the crackling of bacon and eggs in the morning dis-edifying? It is random noise. If you were studying in the morning, trying to consentrate, this could drive you up the wall! But to me it is most edifying. It reminds me of my dad, how he used to cook us breakfast. And so I thank God for the memories of dad. Is a garbage truck dis-edifying when it wakes you up at 6am on a day off? [/b]

This all quite irrelevant. Bacon and eggs? Are you serious? The garbage truck? First, neither of these even compare in volume. Second, all noice produced by the crackling bacon is worth it (I am addicted to the stuff). Third, it's not about who is to blame, but rather the result of the noise itself. Fourth, the question is not of random noise, but of loud, concentrated (and orchestrated in the case of the debate at hand) noise. It's randomness has nothing to do with it.

[b]How about if you were rollerblading and fell and broke your arm. Would that be dis-edifying? Or what if you sat next to a lady at work who talked like the lady from "the Nany". Haha. Her vocal cords have got to be pretty chaotic. That could cause you big problems.[/b]

These are unavoidable accidents and (again) are not the ideal. If I break my arm should I offer it up? Of course. Does that make it a good thing that it happened? Should such things be sought after? Of course not. How does this fit with the present discussion? By the way, me on rollerblades would be a scary sight indeed.


[b]You cannot say that any certain noise, chaotic or not, is dis-edifying. It does nothing to the state of your soul. It cannot do anything to your soul. Physical noises can only cause physical discomfort to your body.[/b]

This contradicts 3000 years of philisophical tradition. If this was true (and some of your other claims) why would Monasterys be the way they are? If it was more beneficial (spiritually) to be amidst chaotic noise then would not the monasterys be chaotic as hell. After all, the monks could just offer it up. No, they know (as does the Church), and have always known, that music does affect your soul. This has been known for several millenia. This is why the Church has always been very selective with what kinds of Music are allowed at Mass. Music affects the soul.

[b]And depending on the disposition of your soul, you can take physical discomfort and vent and be angry, or you can offer it to God and rejoice in the flowers that you've given Him. [/b]

This statement, isolated,is true enough.

[b]Music (or noise - if that is more fitting) is just physical sound waves. It can cause discomfort, it can cause comfort, it can bring memories and physical emotions to the surface, just like smells can (by the way, based on your analysis of music/sound, one would have to admit then that there are dis-edifying smells. Yet some of the foulest smells are God made, natural) - but sound waves don't effect your spirit. The way your will and the disposition of your mind interface with the physical sound, that effects your spirit. [/b]

Again, we are talking about what is ideal, not merely permissable or what is to be tolerated. No one would claim that constant chaotic noise would draw them closer to heaven. Order brings us closer to heaven. It makes sense. God is perfectly ordered. Chaos is antithetical to order. Chaos can provide an opportunity for grace, but that is through offering up something not good, not ordered, not ideal.

Your points do not seem to fit in the argument (if there is one at this junture).

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Jun 30 2004, 11:38 PM'] Funny how someone can say something is "completely dis-edifying" and then deny it and yell at you to drop the subject.

(This "harping" is actually getting to be quite fun. ) [/quote]
Your quotes are in the wrong place. I said "I would completely consider this dis-edifying". Take note: "I" = "me"; "find this" = I consider this to be for me.

I do not find chaotic noice to be conducive to spiritual growth (other than, as was mentioned above, though the offering up of something less than desirable.) The Church agrees with that. Ergo, norms (loose today, I will grant you) for Sacred Music and the order of the Monastic life.

I have only denied words that you put in my mouth.

What you have done here is attempt to capitalise on a post that was not meant as an argument. I have stated that several times. You continue to ignore me. Why is that? Is it because that was the only post you could argue with intelligently and still come away looking like a princess? Just a question. My post was not an argument. I was half joking. I will not say that again, nor will I pursue this discussion any further (with you). If you continue to pursue your vendetta, well, what shall I conclude? Drop it. You are arguing a stupid point on a stupid argument that has little to do with the thread.

Back to the subject at hand..... Rap, etc.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jul 1 2004, 12:04 AM'] Your quotes are in the wrong place.  I said "I would completely consider this dis-edifying".  Take note: "I" = "me";  "find this" = I consider this to be for me. 

I do not find chaotic noice to be conducive to spiritual growth (other than, as was mentioned above, though the offering up of something less than desirable.)  The Church agrees with that.  Ergo, norms (loose today, I will grant you) for Sacred Music and the order of the Monastic life. 

I have only denied words that you put in my mouth. 

What you have done here is attempt to capitalise on a post that was not meant as an argument.  I have stated that several times.  You continue to ignore me.  Why is that?  Is it because that was the only post you could argue with intelligently and still come away looking like a princess?    Just a question.  My post was not an argument. I was half joking.  I will not say that again, nor will I pursue this discussion any further (with you).  If you continue to pursue your vendetta, well, what shall I conclude?  Drop it.  You are arguing a stupid point on a stupid argument that has little to do with the thread.

   Back to the subject at hand..... Rap, etc. [/quote]
Nice personal attack there, buddy. Real big of you. Funny how you always assume I have a personal vendetta against you.

However your points about it being how YOU consider something to be dis-edifying for you personally while it may not be dis-edifying for others only serves to prove MY point that this is subjective.

Oh, and for the record, my nickname "Ice Princess" has nothing to do with me thinking I'm a "princess" but because I'm mean.

Edited July 1, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Jul 1 2004, 12:14 AM'] Nice personal attack there, buddy. Real big of you. Funny how you always assume I have a personal vendetta against you.

However your points about it being how YOU consider something to be dis-edifying for you personally while it may not be dis-edifying for others only serves to prove MY point that this is subjective.

Oh, and for the record, my nickname "Ice Princess" has nothing to do with me thinking I'm a "princess" but because I'm mean. [/quote]
That "personal attack" was a joke (hence the ).
I don't assume anything with you.
You have once again misunderstood me.
And I know full well where you got the name.

God Bless!!

[IcePrincessKRS]

Whatever. This is all very humorous.

Well, since you want back on topic so bad, how about you refute what Jeff and dUSt had to say (since you think I have nothing intelligent to add to the discussion )?

[Guest JeffCR07]

yea, I am very interested to hear a response, plus, anything to get away from useless argument

- Your Amused Brother in Christ, Jeff

[Azriel]

Mad love to Jeff, Jake and dUSty for their posts -

Az - former bass player in a jazz ensemble. :-)