Rap Music

[Spiritual_Arsonist]

Yes, ALL SECULAR RAP MUSIC is evil.

[catholicguy]

"Inherently evil" means ALWAYS evil, not matter what reason or other classifications. That is, abortion is intrinsically evil or inherently evil because it is NEVER OK. It is not OK for rape, incest, life of mother, etc. That means in this case the question is if all rap music (regardless of secular or "religious", if such even exists or even could exist and still call itself religious) is evil no matter what. I would agree with amarkich and Pope Saint Pius V that, yes, whether it claims to be religious or not, rap music is inherently wrong.

[Guest JeffCR07]

catholicguy, now that someone who believes their side of the argument is around and capable of posting, I would very much like for you to address the points that I have raised multiple times, though have not gotten a response. I will post them again:

[quote]Your basic premise is that there are two relevant aspects to consider when judging the worth of a particular musical piece. The first is "lyrics" while the second is "musicality." "Lyrics" refers to the verbal message accompanying the music. "Musicality" refers to skill with which the notes of a piece are arranged in order to invoke particular emotions.

You argue that the two can be analyzed seperately and have their individual value appraised aside from the influence that the other has.

I agree.

It is clear that lyrics can either be good or bad, and the determination of this is relatively easy, so you proceed to the more difficult task: addressing the issue of musicality.

Like you, I agree that, because the arrangement of notes in certain ways can evoke certain emotions, sheer musicality, entirely apart from lyrics, can have a positive or negative affect on one's spirituality.

For anyone who disagrees with me, I will use an example from Music Theory: The Laconic Mode. The Laconic Mode is a series of notes in which each successive note is an equal degree of dissonance apart from the note that preceeded it. It was banned from Church music for a long time. Why? - It just sounds evil. Anyone who doubts me, feel free to listen to it, or to any song that is played within it.

However, here is where Amarkich and I part ways, for it is my opinion that even something like the laconic mode can be used tastefully.

If you are listening to a piece of music that has multiple movements (one without lyrics, I might add) the music itself is used to tell a story. If one is trying to tell the story of, say, Christ's temptation in the Desert and his subsequent fidelity to God and rebuke of Satan, it would not only be "ok" to use the laconic mode, but even advisable.

When it starts out, I can imagine the music to be slow & somber - Christ is fasting. Suddenly it speeds up and gets more excited - the devil has appeared.
The music changes for each temptation, getting louded and louder as Lucifer ups the ante.
Then he asks Christ to worship him - cacaphony, chaos, evil: the laconic mode.
Abruptly it stops. Christ has repulsed the Devil and submitted to God
The music becomes light and airy - the angels minister to Christ

Even music that is, in and of itself, "evil" can be used to magnify the positive affect that music can have.

"But Jeff, what about things like Rock and Rap: THEY don't work in movements like classical music!"

Thats right, they don't. But now we get into a question of how to define things like Rock, Rap, Hip-Hop, etc. Rock first, then Rap and Hip-Hop:

Rock: Most of what has been said with regards to Rock so far is incorrect. Not all rock is "electrifying." Not all rock is "loud." etc. There are many types of rock, so let us first define it.

Really what we are talking about is an instrumental arrangement. For rock music, it consists of guitar(s), bass, drum, vocals, and sometimes piano and other instruments, but those first four are the key.

Each of those instruments is capable of playing "good" music (that is, good for spirituality) and "bad" music (that is, bad for spirituality). Being that no instrument is "evil" in and of itself.

So Jeff, can Rock music ever be good? Yes, it can, listen to Eric Clapton's "Tears in Heaven." It is tremendously sad, uses all of the correct instruments, is undeniably "Rock" (if you contest this, then your definition of Rock is not the same as mine, and is probably too narrow, thus denying some forms of rock music).

The song teaches the importance of living up to one's responsibilities, and of the unconditional love for a son that a father has. It is productive and formative for spiritual development. So, for Rock, it is all about how the instruments are used.

Rap/Hip-Hop:

The basic argument for this is much simpler than that of Rock, due to the nature of the music.

Rap and Hip-Hop have their origins in the old Call-and-Response tradition of the American Slaves. It has slowly developed over time, and, true to what people have said, the musicality (heavy bass beat, mellow guitar parts, and even DJ sampling) is entirely focused on the individual rapper/singer.

But for catholics, this deep focus on one thing (the rapper/singer in this case) should not be a new concept. We focus deeply on Relics, Icons, Crucifixes, Statues etc. In the same way, if the individual that hip-hop or rap music causes you to focus on helps to bring your attention to God, then the music itself is good.


Conclusion:

All this having been said, I would just like to summarize though please (especially amarkich) dont just read the summary.

Any given musical intrument can play a series of notes that either bring one closer to, or further from, God, whether directly or indirectly.

In the case of Rock music, it tends to be direct, with the focus on the music itself (typically the guitar(s)), so it all depends on how the instruments are being played and how the music is being arranged. When done well, Rock can produce positive, wonderful songs, like Tears in Heaven by Eric Clapton.

In the case of Rap and some Hip-Hop, it is indirect, with the music trying to focus the listeners attention on the singer/rapper and what he/she is saying. If the message is good, then the music, which draws attention and focus, is also "good" just like an icon helps draw you to God through focus on a holy image.


Just one last note, then I'm done. I would very much like for any responses to try to avoid the "It sounds like noise," "It isn't music - just listen to that crashing and banging," "I can't focus on the lyrics because the music is too loud" type arguments. More than likely, it is an issue of being accustomed to certain things. Music evolves in a very concreate and real way and if it was truly "so loud" that it nullified lyrics, then lyrics would have eventually dropped from that type of music, even over the course of just 5 or 10 years. This is true because music is a type of communicative expression, like poetry, and demands not only to be concise, but to be acurate to what the artist is trying to portray.[/quote]

[quote]As it has been stated already in this post, Rap, as a music style, tends to rely heavily on bass as the driving power behind the music. This is why:

Typically, if guitars are used in a rap song, it is in an arpeggio (finger-picking) style or impliments the use of an "alaska" pick, worn on the thumb (a more specific style of finger-picking). This guitar style tends to be significantly more subtle, and does not draw attention away from the rapper (that is why it is also the dominant force in folk music).

Sampling (DJing) can have a wide range of uses in terms of what it adds or detracts from the music, and typically (in a manner reminiscent of the call-and-response style) if the artist is in the process of rapping, the sampling is light, only to pick up when the vocals drop off. This helps draw attention to the rapper as well.

The Bass: I would like to spend a few moments addressing the role of the bass in rap songs, because it is a.) what you asked about, and b.) very important. If I can speak with authority on any of this, it is with regards to the bass, seeing as that is the instrument I love most and play best. A bass, unless in the hands of a very capable player, does little more than provide the backbone of the music - a very important job, I might add  . It does not tend to be flashy, but rather, helps to accentuate those things that it accompanies, in order to increase their role in the music. In a guitar-bass duo, the bass allows the guitarist to play intricate solos and get a point across without having the listener lose the true feel and flavor of the song. In the case of a rapper, it provides the platform upon which his vocals stand and, as Dust pointed out, when the bass beat cuts out, it adds complete focus on the rapper. The role of the bass is to allow the vocalist (in the case of rapping) a little more lee-way than he would normally have, and to make it easier for him to make transitions. However, very rarely is the listeners attention focused on the bass itself - typically that occurs when someone plays a "slap-bass" style, which is rarely used in rap.

The end result is that the bass beat holds up the other aspects of the music so that the listener can pay more attention to them. In rock this is in the form of the guitar, in rap, the vocalist.[/quote]

[quote]there are a myriad of nuances to the discussion. However, I do think the argument can be made edifying if we discuss a.) what constitutes (read: "is used to make up") particular styles of music
b.) the method and style in which those parts are put together within the music
c.) the instrinsic (non-accidental) nature of those methods and styles
d.) the sum or net result of all methods and styles in a type of music with regards to its cumulative intrinsic worth.

Example: Gregorian Chant

a.) Gregorian Chant is made up of an individual or group rhythmically singing and intoning prayers in a "chant" form, (ie, it is made up entirely of vocals, broken into the musical (intonation) aspect and the lyrics)

b.) We all know Gregorian Chant when we hear it: deep, rhythmic intonations, typically having tight harmony between all singers. The lyrics are intrinsically moral - they are prayers. The music is intrinsically moral because 1.) the voice is always an acceptable mode of praising God, as tradition (both Western and Eastern) tells us and 2.) tight harmonies and vocal melodies impart a sense of unity, which is fundamentally and intrinsically moral, especially to Catholics.

c.) We will disregard "accidental" matters, such as a guy who just can't sing for the life of him, because (I would hope) we all would agree that the guy standing next to you at church who sings all the hyms off key in not doing something intrinsically immoral or bad. Thus, we will consider the idealized conditions of Gregorian Chant, and whether or not they are spiritually beneficial and moral: The lyrics are about as moral as you can get, and the music (vocals) lead to a positive result on the basis that the rythmic intonations help bring a sense of tranquility and peace, as well as unity when it is done by a group.

d.) All facets of an idyllic Gregorian Chant are good, beneficial, and moral, and, as a result, Gregorian Chant itself, as a musical form, is not intrinsically disordered or bad.[/quote]

This last quote is my (feeble) attempt to provide order to a chaotic debate. I hope that I have outlined in the first to quotes how Rap is not intrinsically evil, and, if possible, I would like a counter argument to follow the form provided in quote 3.

If that form isn't possible to follow, thats ok I guess, just try to make the response cohesive and logical. Thanks a ton!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[catholicguy]

That is a very extensive argument which I do not believe I am capable of answering. You seem to be more informed on the matter than I am at this point. If I am able to counter-argue, it would be necessary for me to do some research first. I do not know how successful I will be in reviving the debate.

[point5]

no

[catholicguy]

???

[Donna]

This has turned into a long post. Sorry, Precious, it's vain and rambly.


I also cannot answer this in-depth argument. But there are those who can. In my heart, I can't agree with them across the board (and I've tried, Precious).

Rap is not my cup of tea at all. However, older pop forms are. I go by my gut. I like song, period. If it is something which doesn't begin, climb, soar, wind down, what's the point?

Personally, I've tried to purge this and other things from my system, and not for a week, either. I did it because some folks I know strongly suggested it. The result? Not good, Precious. Our Lord knows what I've done. On the other hand...balance, moderation; for example, post Motown Marvin Gaye's [i]music[/i] (not even mentioning lyrics) is NOT an aid to purity!

It's difficult. Because taste enters in. IT DOES, fellow Trads, and there are scads of really good players w/in pop forms of music. Is wimpy Olivia OK? Or just Grunge NOT OK? No Grand Funk, right...what about " I'm Getting Closer To My Home?"

A digression. Grandpa Al, the music prof tries to turn the freshman onto atonal music. "You're used to Western Progressions...if you'd been brought up on this you'd like it, or at least understand it."

I disagree. Atonal music is from the devil. And I've heard both classical (not modern classical, either) and pop forms which have disturbed me to my marrow because of the dissonance. The remedy is to flee them and begin singing simple songs! Everyone can relate. Not everyone can explain, but they know if certain music freaks them out.

Pop forms are part of the world we live in. They are called "popular" for a reason. The common man or musician can get to them easier. I like many of them and have come to the conclusion after much prayer that I don't have an answer, and I don't think I can get one from the Church right now; I guess that depends on which specific forms (ie "Tears in Heaven" vs "Layla" not the unplugged version; and I don't mean the lyrics).

But the problem right there is that folk-like stuff can be extremely lame. Nothing worse than de-virilized music.

One of my favorite tunes is the overture played in "A Man For All Seasons", when King Henry begins his little cruise to St. T. More's place.
*****************************************************************

Anyone ever lay off listening to pop forms for, say a week? And only listen to symphonic-like stuff (or movie scores, like Braveheart, or chant, or bluegrass, or silence)? Highly recomended...like retreats; it's good to clear stuff out. Then, we think twice about what we wish to put into our brain again.

Anyone notice anything from doing that?

What was it like when you added pop forms again?

By [i]pop forms [/i]I don't mean Sinatra...I mean since the back-beat drums of snare on beats[i] 2[/i] and [i]4...[/i]since the late 50's maybe.

OK...Trads, what about progressive rock? ELP? Yes? Is it...different or [i]better[/i] when the rythym section (including drums) is not the redundant steady beat, but zooming in and out (arpeggio's, scales, syncopation?).

Or...ever hear Brian Wilson's stuff? He uses sleigh-like bells to keep the steady 4/4; the drums are kinda used like typani...a florish here and there, it's definitely not the typical rock drumming.


Jeff, did they already point out the dominance of the rythym being itself the inversion...that this rythym-steady-dominance stirs the lower passions...that there's a reason drummers were used going into war, to rally and build the passion needed to kill?

NOW I'm rambling...a pipe and drum band is something sublime!!!

[MichaelFilo]

In regards to music, yes it can be evil by it's nature (ex. Cradle of Filth, although I suggest you don't even hear anything that they play, the music alone makes your soul feel like you added half the worlds burdens upon it ). I cannot imagine where guitar noises like that have any role in anything that can be even considered good. If you care to say it is a matter of taste, then, while I still don't suggest it, you'll have to listen to them, and you'll understand that music, without lyrics ( good luck hearing a word these guys say anyways ) can have a very negative effect on you. So, as far as I'm concerned, the music can be evil in it's nature and dis-edifying.

The arguement that rap can be dis-edifying I can imagine can indeed be summarized using the same logic in the previous example of bad music, no matter who you are. While I haven't heard any, I'm sure there are beats that in their very nature are ruinious to mind, body, and soul. The fact of the matter is, however, to suggest all of it is like that would be a big mistake. For isntance the Phatmass CD isn't at all bad, it touches on aspects of faith and the secular dissent from the Faith. If it is dis-edifying it is only so because you are allowing it to become so and you listen to it with a negative view before you even give it a chance.

It's late, maybe I messed up on stuff, and i'm feeling a bit weird, but that is what I think, and I think I'll defend once I get up tommorow morning.

God bless,

Michael

[cmotherofpirl]

Anybody care to comment on Ravel's [i]Bolero[/i] ?

[Donna]

Sorry, Cmom, can't oblige there, either!

But I am confused. MichaelFilo: are you defending popular forms or not?

BTW, I wouldn't need to listen to a band named [i]Cradle of Filth.[/i] Er, some names are enough in themselves to warrant the band's music being shunned w/out ever listening to it.

[MichaelFilo]

What I am saying is that any form of music can be in it's very nature evil. And I used that single band's music ( by which I mean, all but the lyrics ) that it indeed is possible for the music to be evil. However, I went on to say that a whole genre of music cannot be evil.

[dUSt]

I would say this about hip-hop:

1. Mainstream hip-hop music, as a whole, is evil
2. Hip-hop (the culture and music) in itself is not evil, but rather, a reflection of the real-life evil of it's members
4. Hip-hop can be made good

Hip-hop is basically a cross between music and poetry. Simply put, it's a way to deliver a message. Unlike rock, pop, etc, where the lyrics are often only a few bars long and limited to a few short verses and refrains, it is the most effective way to deliver a message in all the modern forms of music. The nature of rap is centered around the rapper and the lyrics, therefore, it is those lyrics which will determine if the song is good or evil.

Give me some bass drums, a funky guitar hook and a few record scratches here and there--because if it means I get to listen to lyrics that talk about the Eucharist, Confession, the Sacredness of the Mass, the Saints and Mary, I'm all for it.

Art imitates life, and then life imitates art. Let's reach our kids with the art they recognize, so they will imitate the message in our lyrics.

[Azriel]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jul 15 2004, 02:09 PM'] I would say this about hip-hop:

1. Mainstream hip-hop music, as a whole, is evil
2. Hip-hop (the culture and music) in itself is not evil, but rather, a reflection of the real-life evil of it's members
4. Hip-hop can be made good

Hip-hop is basically a cross between music and poetry. Simply put, it's a way to deliver a message. Unlike rock, pop, etc, where the lyrics are often only a few bars long and limited to a few short verses and refrains, it is the most effective way to deliver a message in all the modern forms of music. The nature of rap is centered around the rapper and the lyrics, therefore, it is those lyrics which will determine if the song is good or evil.

Give me some bass drums, a funky guitar hook and a few record scratches here and there--because if it means I get to listen to lyrics that talk about the Eucharist, Confession, the Sacredness of the Mass, the Saints and Mary, I'm all for it.

Art imitates life, and then life imitates art. Let's reach our kids with the art they recognize, so they will imitate the message in our lyrics. [/quote]
Rock on!

[conservativecatholic]

Did anyone watch the O'Reilly Factor when they debated why radio stations are refusing to take off explicit rap songs? Some of the songs include lyrics speaking of beating pregnant women. It's a shame that our radio waves aren't even safe anymore! :angry:

[Guest JeffCR07]

I dont think anyone would disagree with you there. We need to do something to safeguard purity in an age of pestilence. That's why I think what Dust & Co. are trying to do is so good: transform rap and hip-hop into something praiseworthy. Cause children to be surrounded with songs of prayer and praise rather than pride and impurity!