Church Scholars! Tell me about school!

[Julie]

So, I'm settled into my final year of undergraduate studies and it's about time I cast an eye into the future.

I love working on my undergraduate thesis (on how the Beatitudes dispose the soul to receive knowledge of God) so I thought I should look into studying more Theology. BUT I'm a little overwhelmed by the 300 million different options. I thought I'd turn to the Phamily and ask whether anyone has recommendations. 

A few things:

1) I'm completely boggled as to whether to go the civil or ecclesiastical route. Literally ANY insight about that would be amesome.

2) I have friends getting Masters in Catechetics at Franciscan. I don't want something like that. I'm definitely more suited for the science of Theology than the semi-practical application.

3) My undergraduate work has been rigorous and very Thomistic- and I LOVE that. I have 28.5 credit hours of philosophy (mostly Aristotle, with a good dose of the moderns) and 26.5 of Theology (about half of which were spent with the Summa, the other half Old/New Testaments, St. Augustine, and a sprinkling of early Fathers.) I have sort of a reading knowledge of Latin (good enough for St. Thomas's easy Summa Latin, but I'd have to practice a little to feel confident with harder writers).  So, I'm prepared to do some hard work. In fact, I'd prefer it!

4) I'd LIKE a terminal degree, and I'd also LIKE to spend less than a million years in school. I mean, I would LOVE to spend a million years in school, but I think it would be imprudent. Alas!

5) It would be a nice if a school were both sort of well respected (even if only in certain circles) and also somewhere that a really orthodox student wouldn't be TOO uncomfortable. I can handle academic freedom and disagreement, but, at the same time, I think there ought to be a little bit of trust between the student and the institution.

 

 

[Sponsa-Christi]

I'm not an official PM "Church scholar" (...at least not yet...), but I have a Master's in theology and a licentiate in canon law.

Re. civil vs. ecclesiastical degrees...

Essentially, a civil degree is a degree from a university which is accredited by local civil authorities, while an ecclesiastical degree is a degree in one of the sacred sciences from a Pontifical faculty, which is accredited by the Holy See. I won't get into the American civil degree system since you're likely already familiar with it, but ecclesiastical degree system basically works like this:

- You start by earning a S.T.B.---a "bachelor's" in theology, although for Americans this is graduate-level coursework. This usually takes three years, and it's roughly equivalent to an M.A. theology or an M. Div. This degree (or the coursework involved in its equivalent) is often referred to as a "first cycle."

- The next "cycle" is the license or licentiate level---this would be an S.T.L. for theology, a J.C.L. for canon law, etc. A license in theology normally takes two years to complete, although it takes three years for a degree in canon law. The coursework for a licentiate is often full-time and quite demanding, and most programs require a thesis on an original topic and a comprehensive exam. A license isn't a terminal degree, but often it can be as useful as one.

- An ecclesiastical doctorate (like an S.T.D. in theology, or a J.C.D. in canon law) can follow a license. Generally, doctoral programs require very minimal coursework, and the main focus is writing a serious thesis/dissertation that makes a real contribution to scholarly research. Five years is normal for a doctorate, but often doctoral students have other full-time jobs while they work on their doctoral thesis. 

In determining whether to go for a civil or ecclesiastical degree, you'd need to consider what you would ultimately like to do with your degree. For example, if you wanted to be a canon lawyer, you would need a J.C.L. to practice. For theology, generally ecclesiastical degrees are preferred for seminary professors. Ecclesiastical degrees also tend to be better recognized internationally. On the other hand, civil degrees are considered more marketable for "mainstream" universities in the United States, even mainstream Catholic universities.

However, you would also need to balance your professional goals against the actual opportunities that make themselves available to you. There are very few Pontifical faculties in the United States, they tend to be very expensive, and there often aren't many scholarship opportunities available. A Pontifical degree is much more affordable if you're willing to go abroad (I think tuition per year for licentiate degree program in Rome is usually somewhere around $3000 American dollars)---but again, there aren't many scholarship opportunities, and you have the hassle involved in moving to another country and learning another language.

There are lots of civil Master's programs in theology in the United States, and many of them do have generous funding. But, I personally think that if you go this route, you have to do more research on the program to make sure it's friendly to orthodoxy.

The usual advice is "pick a system and stick with it." But if you get a really solid M.A. in theology, it is possible to later jump into a licentiate program without too much trouble (which is what I did)---though you would almost certainly need a license before you could go into an ecclesiastical doctoral program. On the other hand, I'm not sure how easy it would be to start with an S.T.B. and go into the civil system. 

I hope this helps!

[LittleWaySoul]

*Chants* Ca-non Law. Ca-non Law. Ca-non Law. Joinnnnn ussssss.

 

Basically everything that Sponsa said, except that I believe if you go to CUA in DC or Saint Paul in Ottawa, you might be able to bypass the first cycle and go straight to a licentiate because of your undergrad theology degree. Could be worth looking into; they both grant Pontifical degrees. I've heard that CUA tends to be more academic and Saint Paul tends to be more pastoral, but don't quote me on that. 

[Sponsa-Christi]

@LittleWaySoul Just wondering, where are you studying? (If you don't mine sharing---it's fine if you'd rather not share here.)

 

[CatherineM]

I could have gone for a JCL just with my law degree. I decided to take a BA in pastoral ministry and a Masters in theology instead. I worked in the tribunal with just my JD and a seminar in canon law, but they were hard pressed for volunteers at the time. My boss was a priest who was a cajillion years old and needed all the help he could get. 

I think it really depends on what you want to do. My interest is in basic adult education. RCIA, small group study stuff. Weird, but it's foundational for me. I think almost every problem in our Church is due to inadequate or inappropriate catechesis. 

[Amppax]

Well I just finished working on my masters, so I can speak to this a bit. You seem more academically inclined, so you will probably be in school forever either way (sorry). I would suggest the civil route, unless you want to teach in a seminary. Plus, less schooling. I would guess you'll need to do a master's and a doctorate. As far as suggestions on where to go, if Franciscan was on your radar, I wouldn't rule it out. They have a Research track (for people looking to go on for a doctorate) and it's pretty rigorous. Perhaps better and more respected programs would be Notre Dame and CUA. maybe check out Christendom or Ave?

[Sponsa-Christi]

I went to Ave for my M.A., and it's a very good program (though to be honest, climate-wise southwestern Florida was not quite my cup of tea.) One great benefit of my M.A. from Ave was that my Roman university counted it as a first cycle. And at least when I was there, Ave also tended to be generous with scholarships for graduate students. 

If you are interested at all in going the ecclesiastical degree track, I would encourage at least considering going to Rome. It's more logistically complicated in the beginning, but studying in Rome is an amazing experience on a number of levels, and studying abroad might actually be more affordable in the long run. 

28 minutes ago, Amppax said:

Plus, less schooling. I would guess you'll need to do a master's and a doctorate.

I think a terminal ecclesiastical degree probably is more schooling altogether, but doing an ecclesiastical doctorate after a license isn't as hard as doing a Ph.D. after an M.A. It's not unusual for an ecclesiastical doctorate to involve somewhere from one week to one semester of classes, and then you have five years to write a thesis on your own time.

[Julie]

Thanks everyone for the replies. They've been helpful!

 

3 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

I went to Ave for my M.A., and it's a very good program (though to be honest, climate-wise southwestern Florida was not quite my cup of tea.) One great benefit of my M.A. from Ave was that my Roman university counted it as a first cycle. And at least when I was there, Ave also tended to be generous with scholarships for graduate students. 

If you are interested at all in going the ecclesiastical degree track, I would encourage at least considering going to Rome. It's more logistically complicated in the beginning, but studying in Rome is an amazing experience on a number of levels, and studying abroad might actually be more affordable in the long run. 

I think a terminal ecclesiastical degree probably is more schooling altogether, but doing an ecclesiastical doctorate after a license isn't as hard as doing a Ph.D. after an M.A. It's not unusual for an ecclesiastical doctorate to involve somewhere from one week to one semester of classes, and then you have five years to write a thesis on your own time.

I've always been sort of biased against Ave, but maybe I should give it a good look. I think it's the undergrads who've given me my not so great impression, anyway.

 

Rome would be very cool. I know  of a bunch of people studying there now, but all of them are studying Canon Law (which, you all should know I think is amesome... just not for me). I'm not opposed to the idea of leaving the US (though my mother would die).

Some people offline have been whispering in my ear about International Theological Institute (which is outside the US) and the Dominican School of Philosophy and Theology. I know two people at the second, but they're both novices with the friars, so their experience is kinda different. Do any of you guys know anything about either of those schools?

[LittleWaySoul]

19 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

@LittleWaySoul Just wondering, where are you studying? (If you don't mine sharing---it's fine if you'd rather not share here.)

I'd rather not share for now. But I'd tell you privately if you'd like. Message me!

[Sponsa-Christi]

21 minutes ago, Julie said:

I've always been sort of biased against Ave, but maybe I should give it a good look. I think it's the undergrads who've given me my not so great impression, anyway.

Undergrad culture at Ave, at least when I was there, is VERY different from grad student culture. (I'd describe grad culture at Ave as: "retreat to your cave to study for most of the day, and surface occasionally to go to Mass or a study group."  )

Like most experiences, there were things about the total experience of studying at Ave that I liked, and other things that I really didn't like. Some of my "dislikes" might be objective downsides, but a lot of my dislikes were also just based on my own personality and might actually be "positives" for a different person. Feel free to PM me if you'd like more specifics. 

I don't have any qualms about saying, though, that the academic theology programs at Ave are excellent. And they have an amazing theological library. The academics are also very heavy on Thomistic philosophy, so that might be especially appealing to you.

 

32 minutes ago, Julie said:

Rome would be very cool.

Rome is, indeed, very cool! 

33 minutes ago, Julie said:

Some people offline have been whispering in my ear about International Theological Institute (which is outside the US) and the Dominican School of Philosophy and Theology. I know two people at the second, but they're both novices with the friars, so their experience is kinda different. Do any of you guys know anything about either of those schools?

I've heard good things about the Dominican House of Studies in Washington, DC. 

[Amppax]

I can second the good things about the DHS. I also know some people at the ITI, it is a good program. The DSPT is the west coast Dominicans, right? Or is it central? I don't know as much about either of them, sorry. 

Seeing as everyone saying where they went, I just finished work on my masters at Franciscan. I was in the research track, though I didn't finish the requirements for various reasons, chiefly the decision that I wasn't going to continue in academia directly. If you're interested, I could tell you more about the pros and cons of Franciscan. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Amppax

[Nihil Obstat]

Biggest con is that you live in Steubenville. Ew.

[Peace]

Nerds. All of you! 

I am jealous obviously.

[truthfinder]

I'm just going to put Dominican University College out there http://www.dominicanu.ca/

Maybe someone can chime in who knows it better and in regards to what Julie's looking for. It's in Canada (Ottawa) but tuition, even as an international student, is affordable compared to other places, especially with the ongoing exchange rate. 

[CatherineM]

Newman Theological is also great. Lots of money for female lay students. I ended up paying very little for my Masters. With the exchange rate, about $150/hour. A bunch of classes can be done online.