The Totally Unoffical Phatmass US Presidential Election Poll

[dominicansoul]

13 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

I find it really irritating that people keep going on about how horrible abortion is. WE PRETTY MUCH ALL AGREE THERE. I mean unless Hassan or SilverPhinx walks in here . . .

And actually, I take that back. That's not what I find irritating. What I find irritating is the insinuation that just because someone doesn't agree that Trump might be worse than Hillary, must NOT realize what an epic travesty abortion is.

It is one of the most important issues I consider when voting. But it is among other human rights issues. The suffering of post-born people matter to me too. I guess that makes me a horrible Christian. I am genuinely concerned about what Trump would do to people. I honestly don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Trump would resort to nuclear warfare if given the opportunity. He has been on the record as saying we should kill the families of terrorists. It makes me think he doesn't really give a you know what about slaughtering innocents outside of the country, whether some of they are out of the womb or still in it.

I think nuclear war is worse than abortion. You're all welcome to disagree, but I don't think it's an entirely unreasonable or unchristian thing to say. You're also welcome to say that you don't think there is a considerably higher risk that Trump will push the big red button, but since none of us are clairvoyant, our opinions on that are not verifiable.

We don't hear the cries of the unborn, but often I don't think we hear the cries of people who live thousands of miles away. They can feel pain too. And lots of them don't deserve to be blown up. God have mercy.

I don't know if we all agree on abortion.  Especially if there are those of you voting for Hilary, we definitely don't see eye to eye on abortion at all...

We don't hear the unborn cries or the cries of people living thousands of miles away being blown up by Obama's drones.  That's not something you hear about in the news... this Democrat administration's support of wars and the killing and the torture done by the orders of the president.  ("oh i thought only republicans loved war and violence and killing post-born people!!") 

By the way, prolifers do more for the unborn and post-born (women, children, families, those in poverty),  than most do.  Democrats tried and succeeded in some cases to knock down Catholic Charities, the Little Sisters of the Poor, Catholic/Christian adoption agencies, Christian businesses who do great things for their communities,  etc. etc. etc.  Democrats did this all in the name of abortion/women's "reproductive" rights and those of same-sex couples.  It's not the Republican party taking away grants and funding from these charities for not goose-stepping along with a liberal anti-life, anti-God agenda.    Democrats are feeding Planned Parenthood from the coffers of our tax dollars and giving millions upon millions to Iran and other terrorist countries where human rights are non-existent...

A nuclear war you're afraid of?  Seriously?  While just writing this post, more babies lost their lives through the cruel savagery of an organization that has absolutely no limitations because of catholics who continuously vote democrat.   We have babies in real and present danger.  We may not listen to their cries, but God surely does.  You better get used to war and more war and nuclear war even.  Our Lady of Fatima warned, "Wars are a punishment for sin."  WE deserve total annihilation for what we've done and continue to do to the most innocent lives amongst us...  more than 50 million lives lost...that's more lives lost than in all the wars fought in the last few hundred years, maybe even the last millennium...

I know the Republicans don't have spines to stand up to Democrat's and they are always afraid of public backlash to their conservative policies.  That's why we Catholics have failed them.  We have a party that's willing to fight for the unborn, but lack that spine because we Catholics don't back them up, we don't give them wind for their sails and hold them accountable to it once they are in office.  WE need to quit putting the abortion issue on the back burner. 

There's no holding the Democrat Party accountable to life issues, because their main platform IS abortion rights, and I don't see that ending anytime soon... 

[Peace]

17 minutes ago, dUSt said:

 

 

 

 

 

OK, I re-read the entire thread and was hard pressed to find any actual arguments against Trump that should be viewed at the same level as abortion. I've quoted above all the arguments against Trump I could find.

They seem to be based mostly on is personality, and a few of the statements he's made that were later clarified, ie- "go after the families of terrorists" does not necessarily mean "kill the family of terrorists". Mostly, the anti-Trump people just seem to have a fear of what he might do with power--again, based on the way he talks and his personality.

Reading back over the thread again just made me even more convinced to vote for Trump than before--based on how difficult it was to find actual concrete arguments against Trump instead of just a general dislike of his personality. Hahaha

Also, since many of you seem to be scared of Trump's "go after the terrorist families" comment, should you not also be scared of our current administration that actually did do that?

When Obama ordered a drone strike that killed 16-year old American citizen Abdulrahman al-Awlaki., who happened to be the son of a terrorist, here's what his press secretary Robert Gibbs said in response: “I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father if they are truly concerned about the well being of their children.”

Don't fool yourselves.

 

Except that he isn't better than Clinton on abortion. Don't fool yo'self, homie!

27 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

I find it impossible to understand why most Catholics continue to empower a political party who's stated goal is protected and tax funded abortion with the carrot of more tax funded government healthcare.   So we got Obamacare that Catholics cry about contributing to contraceptives, but they've also empowered the Democratic Party with control over health care when they state abortion is a health issue that should be tax funded.  

Is Guantanamo Bay closed?  Have we gotten out of the Middle East? Is the economy significantly better? Are these issues as impactful to human dignity and life as not providing infants legal personhood or legal protection?

in 2014, according to the CDC, about 700,000 legal abortions were performed in the USA.  Almost 200 a day.

Approximately180,000 were killed in all armed conflict World Wide. Most conflicts are regional civil wars, not the US and Russia imperializing. 

War is horrendous, but not always morally evil.   Abortion always is, according to the Catholic Church. I simply cannot comprehend empowering a political party that formally promotes abortion as a protected right as a trade for healthcare or perceived better welfare spending.   No wonder Pelosi can be proudly Catholic and a proudly pro-abortion Politician.  You Catholics are just cray-cray.

I would guess this is because many Catholics fall in the "Cafeteria" category and personally support non-Catholic teaching. I would guess that Catholics who attend Mass weekly tend to vote heavily Republican, but I don't have any data on hand.

[PhuturePriest]

1 hour ago, dUSt said:

When this thread was first posted I was in a position of not voting for either candidate. 

I have now changed my position to voting for Trump.

The main reason is the irrational arguments being made by the anti-Trump folks in this thread, and how they seem to be putting abortion on the same level as Trump encouraging someone to punch a guy in the face.

It's ain't the same ballpark, ain't the same league, ain't even the same frickin' sport.

There's something to be said for a political candidate who is totally fine with instigating and then defending violence. He has zero regard for the value of human life.

[dUSt]

11 minutes ago, Peace said:

Except that he isn't better than Clinton on abortion. Don't fool yo'self, homie!

I am completely unconvinced of this. At no point in time have I ever believed Trump would not be better on abortion than Hillary. No argument that I have read up to this point has been valid, because they all make the assumption that Trump is lying when he says he has changed his stance on the issue.

If we can't take Tump at his word, then we definitely can't take Hillary at her word, because out of the two, that is one thing Trump has going for him--he seems way more honest.

[Peace]

24 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

I don't know if we all agree on abortion.  Especially if there are those of you voting for Hilary, we definitely don't see eye to eye on abortion at all...

We don't hear the unborn cries or the cries of people living thousands of miles away being blown up by Obama's drones.  That's not something you hear about in the news... this Democrat administration's support of wars and the killing and the torture done by the orders of the president.  ("oh i thought only republicans loved war and violence and killing post-born people!!") 

By the way, prolifers do more for the unborn and post-born (women, children, families, those in poverty),  than most do.  Democrats tried and succeeded in some cases to knock down Catholic Charities, the Little Sisters of the Poor, Catholic/Christian adoption agencies, Christian businesses who do great things for their communities,  etc. etc. etc.  Democrats did this all in the name of abortion/women's "reproductive" rights and those of same-sex couples.  It's not the Republican party taking away grants and funding from these charities for not goose-stepping along with a liberal anti-life, anti-God agenda.    Democrats are feeding Planned Parenthood from the coffers of our tax dollars and giving millions upon millions to Iran and other terrorist countries where human rights are non-existent...

A nuclear war you're afraid of?  Seriously?  While just writing this post, more babies lost their lives through the cruel savagery of an organization that has absolutely no limitations because of catholics who continuously vote democrat.   We have babies in real and present danger.  We may not listen to their cries, but God surely does.  You better get used to war and more war and nuclear war even.  Our Lady of Fatima warned, "Wars are a punishment for sin."  WE deserve total annihilation for what we've done and continue to do to the most innocent lives amongst us...  more than 50 million lives lost...that's more lives lost than in all the wars fought in the last few hundred years, maybe even the last millennium...

I know the Republicans don't have spines to stand up to Democrat's and they are always afraid of public backlash to their conservative policies.  That's why we Catholics have failed them.  We have a party that's willing to fight for the unborn, but lack that spine because we Catholics don't back them up, we don't give them wind for their sails and hold them accountable to it once they are in office.  WE need to quit putting the abortion issue on the back burner. 

There's no holding the Democrat Party accountable to life issues, because their main platform IS abortion rights, and I don't see that ending anytime soon... 

Well. God bless anyone who decides to respond to this.

[Ice_nine]

Sigh. I don't think that democrats are innocent in terms of war either. Obama has iirc the most extensive drone campaign in us history. So all arguments in that direction atr moot. I already know that.

I also don't think that the GOP is a party "willing to fight for the unborn" just like I don't think democrats ate willing to fight for the poor/ women. I think that's all bs. I know that many disagree with me on that, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean I don't hate abortion more than you do. I'm just not convinced that Trump will do more good than harm.

DS if you can't get past your politics and see that people can jaye abortion as much as you do, but still come to different conclusions on how to deal with that, I don't see the point of the discussion

[dUSt]

3 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

There's something to be said for a political candidate who is totally fine with instigating and then defending violence. He has zero regard for the value of human life.

This is terribly irrational.

[Peace]

1 minute ago, dUSt said:

I am completely unconvinced of this. At no point in time have I ever believed Trump would not be better on abortion than Hillary. No argument that I have read up to this point has been valid, because they all make the assumption that Trump is lying when he says he has changed his stance on the issue.

If we can't take Tump at his word, then we definitely can't take Hillary at her word, because out of the two, that is one thing Trump has going for him--he seems way more honest.

Trump. Honest? 

I have some snow to sell to you too.

[dUSt]

Just now, Peace said:

Trump. Honest? 

I have some snow to sell to you too.

Out of context. I said he seems more honest than Hillary, despite what you would have liked me to have said for the sake of arguing.

[Anomaly]

By the way, the President cannot physically push one button to launch nukes.   He gives the order and the dome of the codes.   The Secretary of State gives the other codes and confirms the order. Neither can do so without the okay if Congress. 

The actual button pushers get the authorization via a secure comm system.   It's not like the Prez can get ticked and pound his fist on a "Family Feud" button.  Even Bush had to get Congress to agree to send troops.   

Read both party's political platforms for the last few election cycles, see what the promised and compare with what the winner accomplished.   Put a little more effort into it then cruising Facebook feeds and links your buddy sends you.  I think that is reasonable effort when your Bishops recommend careful and thoughtful deliberation.

Obama got elected on Hope and Change.  He wasn't going to be the same old politician.   But he was.  Trump is popular because he isn't the same old politician, but he's abrasive and scary.   People don't want the same old political craap, but we don't put in consistent and thoughtful energy to fundamentals.   I can't understand how one political party can be considered "the kindest and most respectful of human dignity" whilst promoting free abortion as a women's right and actively fighting against calling the unborn a human.   Yet you think it's more likely you can change that aspect of the Democratic Political Principles than it is to hope Republicans don't nuke the world.  

[Peace]

1 minute ago, dUSt said:

Out of context. I said he seems more honest than Hillary, despite what you would have liked me to have said for the sake of arguing.

Well. Is he honest or dishonest? If he is dishonest, then why should I believe him?

[dUSt]

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

Well. Is he honest or dishonest? If he is dishonest, then why should I believe him?

I think he is dishonest, but more honest than Hillary. 

If I had to choose between two armed robbers, and one of them says he is going to steal my minivan and kill my kids, and the other says he is going to steal my minivan and let my kids out first, I'm gonna choose the latter dude. Doesn't mean I have to like the dude or proclaim him honest.

[Anomaly]

28 minutes ago, Peace said:

Except that he isn't better than Clinton on abortion. Don't fool yo'self, homie!

But the political party supporting Hillary is much worse than the party supporting Trump.   

If you can't admit that, then you can't admit your Ecuadorean snow farm is a bad idea. 

Edited September 14, 2016 by Anomaly

[Peace]

16 minutes ago, dUSt said:

I think he is dishonest, but more honest than Hillary.

OK. We both agree that he is dishonest. So why should anyone believe that a man who was recently a registered Democrat, and who in the past went on TV and said that he is very pro choice and who supports partial birth abortion, is now telling the truth when he says that he is pro-life? Does the man strike you as having had a profound conversion to the Christian faith, commitment to life, or any general sense of morality? 

I think that he is a liar and is lying. Is that really an unreasonable conclusion?

[dUSt]

12 minutes ago, Peace said:

So why should anyone believe that a man who was recently a registered Democrat, and who in the past went on TV and said that he is very pro choice and who supports partial birth abortion, is now telling the truth when he says that he is pro-life?

Because people, especially people with big egos, don't like to be perceived as liars. It is also in Trump's best interest, being a business man who depends on people believing that he will do what he says he will do, to do what he says he is going to do. So, dishonesty aside, it is practical to think Trump will be more pro-life than Hillary. It's common sense really.