The Totally Unoffical Phatmass US Presidential Election Poll

[Seven77]

1 minute ago, Peace said:

OK.

OK.

[dominicansoul]

14 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Neither Trump or H Clinton are strongly anti abortion.   However, it's plain that Republicans are less pro-abortion.   

If H and the Dems retain the bulk of political power again for another four years, be assured more pro-abortion policies and SC Judges will further entrench pro-abortion laws in our society.   

Pro-Life Democrats are only a sheep costume.  Both parties need to do more to turn back abortion as an okay thing in our society.  It is ludicrous to think that re-empowering the most pro abortion political party does anything to reverse this wholesale acceptance of infanticide.

I don't think it is a fair to get national health care as a political trade to enable murdering infants as inconvenient cysts.  

I am no fan of Trump, but there were better candidates that were not supported.   Most don't pay attention to local politicians and politics which are the fundamental base of the political power in these two parties.  We too quickly dismiss and ignore, then cry like hell every four years and wonder why?  

I would give you props if I wasn't out.

 

I think most Catholics in this country are Democrats and I find it OUTRAGEOUS that they are.  Instead of bellyaching about how horrible our candidates are this year, we should have been a powerful influence on our culture, be an endless champion for the unborn and force our politicians to put abortion front and center.  Instead we bury our heads in the Democrat Donkey's behind and pretend we're doing it out of "social justice" concerns.  How can anyone believe that anything good can come from a party who's sole objective is to get abortion on demand without excuses?  This back and forth has been going on on phatmass for years, where I see "catholics" voting for democrats and trying to justify it with very weak arguments, then chide others for calling them out...

Its no wonder we are where we are at as a country!  Our Church is supposed to be out there fighting for the most vulnerable and poor.  Yet, we think of them as an after thought and "not really the issue to base an entire vote on."   Say what?  What the hell is more important out there than the fact that every hour thousands of babies are being mercilessly slaughtered and their parts sold to the highest bidder?  Why.aren't.we.outraged?????

 

I'll tell you why, because most Catholics agree that abortion is necessary.  Just ask my parish.  99 percent of them all voting Democrat, and conduct massive polling operations on behalf of the Democrat party.  When knocking on doors in my neighborhood, they are called out for the stance on abortion, and I cringe when I hear them say, "We don't judge women for having abortions.  We are Catholics.   Abortion isn't an issue."  

[Peace]

23 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Neither Trump or H Clinton are strongly anti abortion.   However, it's plain that Republicans are less pro-abortion.   

If H and the Dems retain the bulk of political power again for another four years, be assured more pro-abortion policies and SC Judges will further entrench pro-abortion laws in our society.   

Pro-Life Democrats are only a sheep costume.  Both parties need to do more to turn back abortion as an okay thing in our society.  It is ludicrous to think that re-empowering the most pro abortion political party does anything to reverse this wholesale acceptance of infanticide.

I don't think it is a fair to get national health care as a political trade to enable murdering infants as inconvenient cysts.  

I am no fan of Trump, but there were better candidates that were not supported.   Most don't pay attention to local politicians and politics which are the fundamental base of the political power in these two parties.  We too quickly dismiss and ignore, then cry like hell every four years and wonder why?  

Somewhat of an aside, but I thought that you were an atheist. Is that not right?

[Anomaly]

10 minutes ago, Peace said:

Somewhat of an aside, but I thought that you were an atheist. Is that not right?

Yes, I am an atheist ex-Catholic, not an amoralist.  We all exist for but a few short years. 

[Peace]

Just now, Anomaly said:

Yes, I am an atheist ex-Catholic, not an amoralist.  We all exist for but a few short years. 

If you believe that God does not exist, and that people consist only of matter without souls, why would you even care if a woman destroys a zygote? From an atheistic scientific perspective, how would that be any different than killing a spider on your desk? 

What is the basis on which you would find it immoral, if you do not believe in God and an immortal soul?

[Anomaly]

I believe we are physical creatures of varying ability and a member of society.   Either it is only the strong dominating the weak, or society struggles for all to coexist peacefully.   It's illogical to sanction the death of an individual weaker than I when there are others stronger than myself.  Empathy does not require Divine instruction. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Anomaly

[Amppax]

43 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

I would give you props if I wasn't out.

 

I think most Catholics in this country are Democrats and I find it OUTRAGEOUS that they are.  Instead of bellyaching about how horrible our candidates are this year, we should have been a powerful influence on our culture, be an endless champion for the unborn and force our politicians to put abortion front and center.  Instead we bury our heads in the Democrat Donkey's behind and pretend we're doing it out of "social justice" concerns.  How can anyone believe that anything good can come from a party who's sole objective is to get abortion on demand without excuses?  This back and forth has been going on on phatmass for years, where I see "catholics" voting for democrats and trying to justify it with very weak arguments, then chide others for calling them out...

Its no wonder we are where we are at as a country!  Our Church is supposed to be out there fighting for the most vulnerable and poor.  Yet, we think of them as an after thought and "not really the issue to base an entire vote on."   Say what?  What the hell is more important out there than the fact that every hour thousands of babies are being mercilessly slaughtered and their parts sold to the highest bidder?  Why.aren't.we.outraged?????

 

I'll tell you why, because most Catholics agree that abortion is necessary.  Just ask my parish.  99 percent of them all voting Democrat, and conduct massive polling operations on behalf of the Democrat party.  When knocking on doors in my neighborhood, they are called out for the stance on abortion, and I cringe when I hear them say, "We don't judge women for having abortions.  We are Catholics.   Abortion isn't an issue."  

 

 

Hyperbole much? Abortion is not the left's only concern. That's just nonsense. I have quite a few friends on that side of the political aisle, and the issue is rarely discussed, in my experience. Sure, it's part of the typical liberal agenda, but it's only one part. 

Also, there aren't thousands of babies aborted every hour in this country. That there are any aborted is an unspeakable horror, but there's only so much we can do about this politically, and most of that is done on the state level. You would be much better served to focus your efforts on that level of politics to make a difference, rather than lambast people who come to different conclusions about the presidential election. 

 

[ruso]

No vote, since I am not a US citizen. In Europe do nothing but criticize Trump, who we are outside the major parties, we think of Trump as the best candidate.

[KnightofChrist]

2 hours ago, Amppax said:

Hyperbole much? Abortion is not the left's only concern. That's just nonsense. I have quite a few friends on that side of the political aisle, and the issue is rarely discussed, in my experience. Sure, it's part of the typical liberal agenda, but it's only one part. 

Also, there aren't thousands of babies aborted every hour in this country. That there are any aborted is an unspeakable horror, but there's only so much we can do about this politically, and most of that is done on the state level. You would be much better served to focus your efforts on that level of politics to make a difference, rather than lambast people who come to different conclusions about the presidential election. 

 

There is one element of Abortion that I believe allows for its continued acceptance in society. An element that allows people to rationalize voting for parties who treat it as a fundamental right. An element that allows or at least makes it easier for you to criticize Ds and myself for hyperboles and lambasting people.

The element is the veil of Abortion, it's hidden away from our senses. If children were being murdered in the streets, out in the open where ever we would go, it would change everything.

Having to wake up and go through the day seeing thousands of children being killed, having to hear their screams, and walk around or drive around the countless bodies, to see the pain on their faces, to smell their decomposing bodies, that would change everything.

If that one element changed would society accept the mass murder of children? Would people rationalize voting for parties that treated the mass murder of children as a fundamental right? Would you so easily criticize Ds for 'thousands an hour' when technically she should have said per day? Would you so easily criticize Ds for 'lambasting' those that would still vote for a presidential candidate that would openly support and advocate the mass murder of children? I don't believe you would, not after seeing, hearing and smelling unveiled abortion, out in the open.  

I'm sorry to say it but I think many of us, myself included, would treat abortion as a far greater threat than we do now, and more as the threat that it is, it's just so hard to see its true wickedness because it is hidden away from our senses.

Edited September 14, 2016 by KnightofChrist

[dominicansoul]

1 hour ago, Amppax said:

Hyperbole much? Abortion is not the left's only concern. That's just nonsense. I have quite a few friends on that side of the political aisle, and the issue is rarely discussed, in my experience. Sure, it's part of the typical liberal agenda, but it's only one part. 

Also, there aren't thousands of babies aborted every hour in this country. That there are any aborted is an unspeakable horror, but there's only so much we can do about this politically, and most of that is done on the state level. You would be much better served to focus your efforts on that level of politics to make a difference, rather than lambast people who come to different conclusions about the presidential election. 

 

For Planned Parenthood, elections are all about abortion.  For Planned Parenthood, it's all about that one single issue.   Seeing that this billion dollar industry is well taken care of and protected by the Democrat Party is proof enough that its the major part of their platform.  The Democrat Party politicians and Planned Parenthood make lots and lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ slaughtering babies.  I don't agree that we can't do anything about abortion in a presidential election.  Obama vetoed defunding Planned Parenthood.  Abortion is a main staple of his "health care" mandate.  I can't possibly understand why so many Catholics can't recognize this.  

I do agree that working to end abortion is more successful in the state's level, we pro-lifers have been very blessed in Texas.  Planned Parenthood was struck down pretty hard and will have a great deal of time rebuilding itself up in our state.  But they got help from their Democrat friends on the Supreme Court.  Which is another reason why voting against Hilary is more important now than in any election.  She will stack the court with democrats.  

As far as the thousands of babies aborted....I'm not speaking only of our country.  The USA under a Democrat Party administration also helps other nations kill their unborn every hour...

I'm not lambasting anybody, I'm bewailing the sad fact that Catholics push abortion aside and make like it's not the biggest issue out there.  We need to make it our main issue.  How can we sit by and allow this to continue and sit on our hands and say, "we can't do anything about this politically in a presidential election?"  In my example, I pointed out the truth of my local parish.  Sadly, they worked hard to try and help Wendy Davis get elected governor of our State.  Do you know what Wendy Davis was known for?  She fillibustered for 11 hours to keep the killing of 20 week old unborn babies legal in our state.  Her nickname was "Abortion Barbie."  And for this woman, Catholics in my state worked hard to try and get her elected.  Thankfully, Governor Abbot won instead. (Ironically, he's our first Catholic governor in Texas' history.)  

Can you imagine if we Catholics were of all one mind against abortion and rallied behind this one issue, how fast our politicians would change their minds on it?  If all Catholic voters demanded a truly prolife candidate, I am sure we would see more of them.  A truly prolife Republican ticket where they actually do some damage to Planned Parenthood's stronghold on our policies would be a dream come true.  Trump has a man running with him who is unapologetically prolife.  I hope he can be the prolife voice in a Trump administration... Hilary's vice president pushes abortion to the side..."meh" to that issue, like most catholics do...

I know that there are many issues that need to be addressed...but I think these are waaaaaaay secondary to abortion.  Let's stop the bloody unborn baby sacrifices first, then we can truly find solutions to all our country's problems...

[Anomaly]

I repeatedly here abortion referred to as "a women's right to chose".   If society really wants to coexist and protect rights, then we must first protect the rights of the most vulnerable, the most voiceless.   

Before women in a male dominated society, before dark skinned in a light colored society, before foreigners escaping their homeland, are infants.   They are the most silent, the weakest, the poorest, the least like us grown adults.   We can afford to not give them any rights.   They aren't human yet like the sick, infirm, and old aren't human anymore.

Saying there are too many of them, they aren't mentioned, they aren't seen or discussed, they don't vote, they can't contribute to society, they can't beg, bully, wheedle or whine is frightening.  They are a burden, unwelcome interlopers, inconvenient, not really human, destined for misery.   Could that not be us in old age, suffering an illness or accident, the bad luck of a few proteins in our DNA?  

A spider could never be me or you. A zygote could.  We all can be aged and/or infirm.  An atheist can rationally identify with and have empathy for the unborn without divine decree instructing them to.  I empahize with a large dose of selfishness.   I hope for a pleasant 80-90 years and then I exist no more.   To obtain that while I'm not dominating and strongest, I want a society that protects everyone.   I'm okay with giving to get.

You Catholics know you must first do for the least.   Your Supreme Being God demands it if you or suffer eternal torture for failure.  Who is the least this God of yours means?  The least that can thank you?   The least that you can't ignore?  

It is the Democrat Party that makes abortion protection a priority and a protectected "women's right" a Plank of their political platform.   The masses are bamboozled and go along with it so now, it's politically inconvenient for everyone, even Republicans.  How stupid to point at the failures of Republicans who don't have the political power to change or effectively contest Democrats, and then give MORE power to pro-abortion political party.  What do you think will happen?   

Trump smells of elderberries a lot!   At least he owes something to the political party that is not pro-abortion.   At least he can have a running mate that is somewhat anti-abortion.  

Pay attention to your local state and federal politicians, senators, congressmen. Support ones that aren't pro-abortion.  It isn't all about the Presidential race, but the Presidential race is important too.

[Peace]

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

There is one element of Abortion that I believe allows for its continued acceptance in society. An element that allows people to rationalize voting for parties who treat it as a fundamental right. An element that allows or at least makes it easier for you to criticize Ds and myself for hyperboles and lambasting people.

The element is the veil of Abortion, it's hidden away from our senses. If children were being murdered in the streets, out in the open where ever we would go, it would change everything.

Having to wake up and go through the day seeing thousands of children being killed, having to hear their screams, and walk around or drive around the countless bodies, to see the pain on their faces, to smell their decomposing bodies, that would change everything.

If that one element changed would society accept the mass murder of children? Would people rationalize voting for parties that treated the mass murder of children as a fundamental right? Would you so easily criticize Ds for 'thousands an hour' when technically she should have said per day? Would you so easily criticize Ds for 'lambasting' those that would still vote for a presidential candidate that would openly support and advocate the mass murder of children? I don't believe you would, not after seeing, hearing and smelling unveiled abortion, out in the open.  

I'm sorry to say it but I think many of us, myself included, would treat abortion as a far greater threat than we do now, and more as the threat that it is, it's just so hard to see its true wickedness because it is hidden away from our senses.

The lecture continues.

Trump advocates torture. If you saw men being tortured in the streets would that prevent you from voting for Trump? Apparently not. Therefore you have rationalized voting for torture. And that is vile and despicable.

[Peace]

46 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

A spider could never be me or you. A zygote could.  We all can be aged and/or infirm.  An atheist can rationally identify with and have empathy for the unborn without divine decree instructing them to.  I empahize with a large dose of selfishness.   I hope for a pleasant 80-90 years and then I exist no more.   To obtain that while I'm not dominating and strongest, I want a society that protects everyone.   I'm okay with giving to get.

OK. But so what? What makes your, mine, or any human life any more valuable than a spider?

Because humans are created in the image and likeness of God, and because humans are especially loved by God, while spiders are not, perhaps?

And why should you empathize with anyone? Other animals do not empathize, and from a strictly atheistic standpoint humans are simply another animal.

And why should a society protect everyone? Where does that idea come from?

You, as an atheist, do not have any logical reasons for asserting that those things should be done, do you?

And who cares whether you get 80-90 years of a pleasant life, and cease to exist, or get 6 months of a torturous life, and cease to exist? The outcome is exactly the same in either case. That is, in either case your life is objectively meaningless, if atheism is true. So why should you, me, or anyone else care about whether your life is pleasant or not?

46 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

You Catholics know you must first do for the least.   Your Supreme Being God demands it if you or suffer eternal torture for failure.  Who is the least this God of yours means?  The least that can thank you?   The least that you can't ignore? 

He is your God as well. And He exists. You know that as well, but you just refuse to acknowledge it. You know very well that your inner sense of morality comes from your Creator in Heaven. Hopefully your denial of this will not be to your peril, but I would advise you to think about your decision to refuse to acknowledge your Creator yet again.

As far as the rest of what you wrote, yes, I agree. We should try our best to end abortion.

[LittleWaySoul]

18 minutes ago, Peace said:

OK. But so what? What makes your, mine, or any human life any more valuable than a spider?

Because humans are created in the image and likeness of God, and because humans are especially loved by God, while spiders are not, perhaps?

And why should you empathize with anyone? Other animals do not empathize, and from a strictly atheistic standpoint humans are simply another animal.

And why should a society protect everyone? Where does that idea come from?

You, as an atheist, do not have any logical reasons for asserting that those things should be done, do you?

And who cares whether you get 80-90 years of a pleasant life, and cease to exist, or get 6 months of a torturous life, and cease to exist? The outcome is exactly the same in either case. That is, in either case your life is objectively meaningless, if atheism is true. So why should you, me, or anyone else care about whether your life is pleasant or not?

He is your God as well. And He exists. You know that as well, but you just refuse to acknowledge it. You know very well that your inner sense of morality comes from your Creator in Heaven. Hopefully your denial of this will not be to your peril, but I would advise you to think about your decision to refuse to acknowledge your Creator yet again.

All due respect, but let's try to keep the conversation political.

Ending abortion, from what I know of our political and cultural system, is a complex issue that needs to be addressed at all levels of society. While republicans tend to be pro life in the sense that they are against abortion, often they forget all of the surrounding issues which also support higher abortion rates. They forget that this is not just about changing laws, but changing hearts. Much work has to be done on the grassroots level.

That's not to say that voting for someone blatantly pro-choice is a good idea, but I think that republicans often have extreme tunnel vision when it comes to this issue. There are so many things that would decrease the rate of abortions that I think both parties could/should get behind. But there needs to be a balance. 

Normally I would unquestionably vote for the most pro-life person for reasons expressed above. This time, however, I believe we are in a desperate situation which makes me extremely unsure of what I will do come November. There are lives on the line here, and not only if Clinton wins. Being pro-life means having a consistent pro life ethic, and I sometimes think that Trump's statements and ideas on the whole are much more reflective of the culture of death than Clinton's are.

That doesn't mean I'm not authentically pro life. That doesn't mean I haven't considered whether or not my thoughts would be different if abortion were a more visible and prominent reality. I assure you, I and others here have likely given this a LOT of thought. I for one say none of this lightly or flippantly. I am genuinely and sincerely conflicted, pro-life and all. 

As Pope Benedict said:

"When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons."

I am seriously considering the possibility that preventing a Trump presidency could be a proportionate reason to vote Clinton. 

However, once again, I am extremely conflicted here. 

[Peace]

1 minute ago, LittleWaySoul said:

All due respect, but let's try to keep the conversation political.

You must not be familiar with Unofficial Phatmass Rule #367, Subsection 5:

The person who creates a thread may derail it as he pleases.