The Totally Unoffical Phatmass US Presidential Election Poll

[Anomaly]

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

OK. We both agree that he is dishonest. So why should anyone believe that a man who was recently a registered Democrat, and who in the past went on TV and said that he is very pro choice and who supports partial birth abortion, is now telling the truth when he says that he is pro-life? Does the man strike you as having had a profound conversion to the Christian faith, commitment to life, or any general sense of morality? 

I think that he is a liar and is lying. Is that really an unreasonable conclusion?

Because both Hillary and Trump have to cater to the direction of the two political parties.   The two political parties have to cater to voters for money and votes. It's not perfect, but it strongly influenced what both candidates can do.  

Hillary cannot suddenly (and effectively) become anti-abortion if elected.  Trump cannot become suddenly (and effectively) pro-abortion if elected.  

Obama could not close Guantanamo, or extricate the US from the Middle East.  He had to deal with realities of national politics.  If you won't admit this and admit both candidates are tempered by national politics, then you're just being stubbornly contrary to justify voting for the Democrat Party and principles despite their active advocacy to protect and fund abortion. 

[Peace]

19 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

But the political party supporting Hillary is much worse than the party supporting Trump.   

If you can't admit that, then you can't admit your Ecuadorean snow farm is a bad idea. 

Sure, I admit that. That is obvious. 

But I don't see why it matters. Trump has not shown any inclination to adhere to the Republican platform or listen to the Republican leadership. If he had, he would never be in this position in the first place.

If you were talking about Marco Rubio, Kasich, or even Cruz, the argument might have some weight. 

But anyway, I am bailing out because I am tired of discussing it. We view the facts differently, which is fine by me. 

Vote your conscience, as Ted Cruz said.

[dUSt]

To my horror, I am siding more and more with the resident athiest on this issue.

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

Vote your conscience, as Ted Cruz said.

Vote your informed conscience, as the bride of Jesus said.

[Peace]

7 minutes ago, dUSt said:

Vote your informed conscience, as the bride of Jesus said.

I plan to, as do you.

[dUSt]

When all is said and done, Trump will win Texas easily, so I'm probably just going to vote for myself.

[Anomaly]

17 minutes ago, dUSt said:

To my horror, I am siding more and more with the resident athiest on this issue.

Vote your informed conscience, as the bride of Jesus said.

Even an atheist can have morals and principles.  All of us should be utilizing reason and knowledge  (and you guys can add in divine instruction from your Church).   I freely admit the Catholic Church almost always uses reason and knowledge to develop instruction for acting in accordance with your principles.  Regardless if we disagree on how we discern to conclude a certain principle, if we agree on that principle, we can challenge each other to follow that principle with integrity, reason, and intelligence. 

[<3 PopeFrancis]

1 hour ago, dUSt said:

Out of context. I said he seems more honest than Hillary, despite what you would have liked me to have said for the sake of arguing.

One thing he is honest on how he thinks.  For sure.

[Peace]

1 minute ago, Anomaly said:

Even an atheist can have morals and principles.

Absolutely. But that doesn't change the objective reality that your sense of morality comes from God. You just refuse to admit it.

[Anomaly]

33 minutes ago, Peace said:

Sure, I admit that. That is obvious. 

But I don't see why it matters. Trump has not shown any inclination to adhere to the Republican platform or listen to the Republican leadership. If he had, he would never be in this position in the first place.

If you were talking about Marco Rubio, Kasich, or even Cruz, the argument might have some weight. 

But anyway, I am bailing out because I am tired of discussing it. We view the facts differently, which is fine by me. 

Vote your conscience, as Ted Cruz said.

Trump may not wholeheartedly want to, but he will have to.   Trump had to run as a Republican and follow rules and cooperate some, else he would be likes  Ross Perit right now.  (Only with a snowball's chance in Ecuador to actually win). 

We don't see facts differently.  You refuse to admit tobwhat you really see because you don't want the unpleasant association with a blowhard.  I don't like it either, but better the associate of the blowhard than supporting the known and successful pro-abortion political machine.  

[Peace]

2 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

We don't see facts differently.  You refuse to admit to what you really see

Heh. The same applies to your denial of God, but that is a totally different thread, I suppose.

[dUSt]

18 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Even an atheist can have morals and principles. 

Not in and of themselves, but that is a totally different topic.

[Papist]

5 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

Watch the first one in particular.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1fyFN-rXoU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gLbN1TcgLA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqkmJpUd6qs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ8iS6mG6xo

This is merely the first few videos that popped up. There are extensive articles on this. He is violent, dangerous, and shouldn't be within 100 miles of the White House. He says we should kill families of terrorists and put Muslims in databases, and his behavior indicates he's quite serious.

I am no Trump fan (never was) and I probably not voting for him. but I do not interpret those videos snippets as you do.  All I see is an egocentric person saying stuff for entertainment purposes and to rile up the crowd. 

[LittleWaySoul]

Some really good posts here. I'm out of props, but thanks for sharing, everyone. There's lots to think about here.

[dominicansoul]

3 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

Sigh. I don't think that democrats are innocent in terms of war either. Obama has iirc the most extensive drone campaign in us history. So all arguments in that direction atr moot. I already know that.

I also don't think that the GOP is a party "willing to fight for the unborn" just like I don't think democrats ate willing to fight for the poor/ women. I think that's all bs. I know that many disagree with me on that, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean I don't hate abortion more than you do. I'm just not convinced that Trump will do more good than harm.

DS if you can't get past your politics and see that people can jaye abortion as much as you do, but still come to different conclusions on how to deal with that, I don't see the point of the discussion

I can't convince everybody, but hopefully there are those undecided who will recognize that voting Democrat is extremely detrimental to the lives of our unborn sisters and brothers...

3 hours ago, Anomaly said:

By the way, the President cannot physically push one button to launch nukes.   He gives the order and the dome of the codes.   The Secretary of State gives the other codes and confirms the order. Neither can do so without the okay if Congress. 

The actual button pushers get the authorization via a secure comm system.   It's not like the Prez can get ticked and pound his fist on a "Family Feud" button.  Even Bush had to get Congress to agree to send troops.   

Read both party's political platforms for the last few election cycles, see what the promised and compare with what the winner accomplished.   Put a little more effort into it then cruising Facebook feeds and links your buddy sends you.  I think that is reasonable effort when your Bishops recommend careful and thoughtful deliberation.

Obama got elected on Hope and Change.  He wasn't going to be the same old politician.   But he was.  Trump is popular because he isn't the same old politician, but he's abrasive and scary.   People don't want the same old political craap, but we don't put in consistent and thoughtful energy to fundamentals.   I can't understand how one political party can be considered "the kindest and most respectful of human dignity" whilst promoting free abortion as a women's right and actively fighting against calling the unborn a human.   Yet you think it's more likely you can change that aspect of the Democratic Political Principles than it is to hope Republicans don't nuke the world.  

It's a good thing the President can't just press a button and nuke the world.  We would have been wiped out with Bill Clinton.  I wonder if he even knew where his hands were half the time...

[Ice_nine]

3 hours ago, Anomaly said:

By the way, the President cannot physically push one button to launch nukes.  

I know that. I like metaphors. Don't be so stuffy

I think when one side accuses the other side of "just not getting it," the conversation has devolved beyond any chance of a meaningful discussion.

I respect you convictions (I guess I'm speaking to mainly DS an anomaly here). I don't really like the insinuation that I and others am just either too obtuse or not concerned enough about abortion because I don't agree with your political stance. That's disheartening. 

I've never voted democrat, and I live in a solidly blue state. I've been vocal, when the opportunity arises, to let people know that Obama is pretty hawkish with his drone campaign and comparable to Bush in terms of civil liberties. I don't know much about Hilary Clinton tbh. Maybe that's why I don't understand the seething hatred some people have for her.  I don't agree with much of her ideology, but I think Trump is an absolute joke. I don't like Clinton but I can at least admit that she has the credentials to be president (as do most of the people who ran for the GOP this year). Trump is just so openly narcissistic and incompetent.

But I can't participate in this conversation anymore. I don't think I have the energy. Esp when I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over.