Holy Communion in the hand or on the tongue ?

[Peace]

10 hours ago, McM RSCJ said:

What do you find distasteful?  That I wrote about it?  Or that this happened to me, was done to me?

You replied so quickly, and you have been so adamant for an opposite point of view that I wonder if you listened to me or wrote me off right away?

(Am I accurate in remembering you accused me of heresy the last time I posted?)

Well. Some might find the comparison to rape to be a bit beyond the pale. It's a bit difficult for us to say because none of us was there or know your exact circumstances, but why not just keep your mouth shut when you go up for communion, so that there is no confusion? I really have trouble seeing a priest trying to literally pry your lips open and shoving the host in. But hey, maybe that is how the priest in that parish rolls. Report it to the Bishop. And it's not like you have an absolute right to receive in the hand (perhaps you do depending on where you live).

You make some decent points but I don't think they matter to some people in this thread. It is like trying to convince a Steelers fan to root for the Browns. Just ain't gonna happen. But that doesn't mean you aren't right.

But yeah, if you start off by accusing what people prefer to be a form of rape, it kind of further predisposes them to not give your points the time of day. Just a little bit.

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

41 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

 

..........but not necessarily........."maybe" is operative.  It is not what a person does nor appearances but the reason and motivation (the heart) for what is done.

Surely, the most important factor is the disposition of the heart and mind in receiving The Blessed Eucharist. 

 

Both your disposition AND you posture matter, BarbaraTheresa. Both!  This idea of "God knows your heart" has been used by many to be lazy in many aspects of their spiritual life. We are told that at the very utterance of the Holy Name every knee above and below bends, what do you think these knees should do when we receive His entire Person in communion? 

"Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker." --Psalm 95:6

"For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."--Romans 14:11

"And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"--Matthew 27:29

Just think of the act of reperation we make to Christ for this insult when we kneel amidst the Roman soldiers in adoration to adore and receive our King!!! At Mass are we not truly present during His Passion?! 

In the Bible how to people approach Christ? 

"Seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed down before Him"--Mark 5:6

"As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"--Mark 10:17

"But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus' feet, saying, "Go away from me Lord, for I am a sinful man!"--Luke 5:8

"And a leper came to Him and bowed down before Him, and said, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean."--Matthew 8:2

What about us spiritual lepers who are full of sin? Will we just stand?

"But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"--Matthew 15:25

"When they came to the crowd, a man came up to Jesus, falling on his knees before Him and saying, 'Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is a lunatic and is very ill; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water."--Matthew 17:15

"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."--Isaiah 45:23

[LittleWaySoul]

I honestly don't think kneeling in general is culturally negative or unused anymore (in reply to what I think was @hotpink's point). For example; a man kneels to propose marriage. Or the fact that we kneel as a sign of reverence when in the presence of Christ in the monstrance. I don't hold one position very strongly over another in this debate, but if I were to imagine meeting Christ, I can only imagine myself falling at His feet in shame and sorrow for my sins and gratitude for His mercy. I agree that standing is a sign of respect when someone comes in the room in American culture, but all the same, I can't quite imagine standing tall in the presence of God Incarnate. 

On this Sunday we will all attend Mass and many of us will receive Our Lord. While I'm sure there is a correct answer to this debate, I can't help but feel it doesn't justify the anger and disdain both sides have shown here. Let's instead reflect on Christ's love for us: so great that He would offer Himself to us through the Eucharist. We should offer prayers for one another and be thankful we share one faith and one Church.

Saint Mother Teresa, pray for us!

[Peace]

9 minutes ago, Oremus Pro Invicem said:

Both your disposition AND you posture matter, BarbaraTheresa. Both!  This idea of "God knows your heart" has been used by many to be lazy in many aspects of their spiritual life. We are told that at the very utterance of the Holy Name every knee above and below bends, what do you think these knees should do when we receive His entire Person in communion? 

"Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker." --Psalm 95:6

"For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."--Romans 14:11

"And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"--Matthew 27:29

Just think of the act of reperation we make to Christ for this insult when we kneel amidst the Roman soldiers in adoration to adore and receive our King!!! At Mass are we not truly present during His Passion?! 

In the Bible how to people approach Christ? 

"Seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed down before Him"--Mark 5:6

"As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"--Mark 10:17

"But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus' feet, saying, "Go away from me Lord, for I am a sinful man!"--Luke 5:8

"And a leper came to Him and bowed down before Him, and said, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean."--Matthew 8:2

What about us spiritual lepers who are full of sin? Will we just stand?

"But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"--Matthew 15:25

"When they came to the crowd, a man came up to Jesus, falling on his knees before Him and saying, 'Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is a lunatic and is very ill; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water."--Matthew 17:15

"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."--Isaiah 45:23

I don't quite follow the logic that one should react to Jesus in the host in exactly the same manner that people treated Jesus when he walked the Earth. He is/was present in two entirely different modes of existence. In Jesus 's second mode of existence he does not have literal eyes, ears, and human flesh...that is not to say that the host should not be adored, of course.

[Guest]

I am not saying that posture is unimportant, rather what I said was:

14 minutes ago, Oremus Pro Invicem said:

Surely, the most important factor is the disposition of the heart and mind in receiving The Blessed Eucharist

I don't think that we can assess people's reasons and motivations by appearances and nonsense to do so.  For example, I receive in the hand bowing beforehand.  Do you know my personal motivation and reason aside from obedience to my Archbishop's ruling for his diocese?

A person might appear to be very holy and pious, but that is appearances.  Just as you stated "This idea of "God knows your heart" has been used by many to be lazy in many aspects of their spiritual life." so appearances of holiness and piety have been used merely for appearances and with appearances as sole motivation and in a desire that others should think one is holy and pious.

And I do think anyone who would challenge (Book of Samuel) (""7But the LORD said to Samuel: "Do not judge from his appearance or from his lofty stature, because I have rejected him. Not as man sees does God see, because man sees the appearance but the LORD looks into the heart." First Book Samuel chapter 16 http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P7A.HTM)   because it has been "has been used by many to be lazy in many aspects of their spiritual life" confuses me no end because God indeed does know the heart whereas human beings cannot.  Some might be able to deliberately cover their "spiritual laziness" by some Bible quotation, but it is useless to do so because The Lord does indeed know the heart.

I just might be able to get down on my knees if supported, but very much doubt I could get up even with support (physical disability). Hence if someone judged me for not kneeling at any time, it would be false judgement.

I think that we are called as a command not to judge for quite sound and logical reasons - aside from the fact that if we do sit in judgement on others, then we will inherit judgement from God. "Judge not that you may not be judged" ......and ......... "Go and learn what this means: 'I want mercy and not sacrifice,' because I did not come to call righteous people, but sinners."
 

Look at all the people Jesus embraced in His own time on earth who were despised by His fellow believers - solely because of appearances and judgement quite often based on what they were taught.  Jesus contradicted all that by word and by deed. 

I am not saying at all that we should challenge always what we might be taught - nor that posture at Holy Communion is unimportant - rather I am saying how shallow it is to judge by appearances, and how if we do judge by appearances how easily we can be fooled into incorrect judgements.  We are commanded not to judge for quite logical reasons for one.

At this point in time in my own diocese and in most other diocese I know of, we are given a choice of posture to receive Holy Communion and either standing or on the tongue.  We are also asked to bow prior to receiving.

[Guest]

In my parish, some receive on the tongue standing, others kneeling.  Some receive standing on the hand.  Other variation too at times - some receive on the hand and then kneel to actually receive. some kneel for a moment after receiving on the tongue while standing.  What I like about the diversity in our parish (and not only at Holy Communion) is that it speaks of what St Augustine is said to have stated "In essentials unity, in non essentials diversity and in all things love".  And the very fact that there is diversity in receiving Holy Communion without fuss and bother in our parish at all, either from our pp or any parishioners speaks of love and acceptance of diversity in our parish.

We do need to be accepting of diversity certainly in Australia since we are a multicultural society for sure and increasingly so nowadays.

And to date in our diocese, there is a certain diversity permitted by our Archbishop as there seems to be in all the diocese I know of anyway.  And if in some diocese, unity of posture etc. is an essential, then I would take that up were I in such a diocese.  And just as I had no difficulty whatsoever in my own personal motivation behind receiving standing and receiving in my hand, I would have no difficulty whatsoever in doing the same with receiving on the tongue (but would not be able to kneel due to physical disability).

Edited September 4, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[<3 PopeFrancis]

2 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

.but not necessarily........."maybe" is operative. 

That's why I said maybe.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, <3 PopeFrancis said:

That's why I said maybe.

I thought you probably did - and wanted to underscore it.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

We do need to be accepting of diversity certainly in Australia since we are a multicultural society for sure and increasingly so nowadays.

It has just occurred to me that one of the reasons our Archbishop (for one only) might have permitted diversity of posture etc. in receiving Holy Communion might be due to the fact that we are a quite multicultural society with people coming from various traditions re manner of receiving Holy Communion.  I can't say this is so of course, but it is a potential to keep in mind and a kindly one -  and certainly diversity might have allowed people from other religious cultural traditions to transition a little more smoothly into Australian Catholic cultural life by being permitted to continue similarities to their country-of-origin Catholic cultural traditions re reception of Holy Communion, Jesus, source of summit of The Church - The Alpha and Omega -  (Catholic Catechism #1324 - 1327 Vatican - CCC - HERE )

And diversity too of course has permitted those who have struggled with all the changes that did come about to not struggle over something as all-embracing and important, vital, as disposition and manner of receiving the Body and Blood of The Lord.

Edited September 4, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[<3 PopeFrancis]

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I thought you probably did - and wanted to underscore it.

 

3 hours ago, Oremus Pro Invicem said:

 

4 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

 

..........but not necessarily........."maybe" is operative.  It is not what a person does nor appearances but the reason and motivation (the heart) for what is done.

Surely, the most important factor is the disposition of the heart and mind in receiving The Blessed Eucharist. 

 

Both your disposition AND you posture matter, BarbaraTheresa. Both!  This idea of "God knows your heart" has been used by many to be lazy in many aspects of their spiritual life.

 

Agreed.

..........but not necessarily........."maybe" is operative.  It is not what a person does nor appearances but the reason and motivation (the heart) for what is done.

Surely, the most important factor is the disposition of the heart and mind in receiving The Blessed Eucharist. 

11 hours ago, Kateri89 said:

 

This whole debate brings to mind the passage from The Screwtape Letters where Screwtape writes to Wormwood about how Christians pray.  "At the very least, they can be persuaded that the bodily position makes no difference to their prayers; for they constantly forget, what you must always remember, that they are animals and that whatever their bodies do affects their souls”.

 

Just food for thought. 

 

It was a question and I learned alot.  I learned that as long as I receive Our Lord within the Laws I can receive Him the way I want or I see fit or etc.  Thank you all for the wonderful suggestions.

 

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I thought you probably did - and wanted to underscore it.

 

3 hours ago, Oremus Pro Invicem said:

 

4 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

 

..........but not necessarily........."maybe" is operative.  It is not what a person does nor appearances but the reason and motivation (the heart) for what is done.

Surely, the most important factor is the disposition of the heart and mind in receiving The Blessed Eucharist. 

 

Both your disposition AND you posture matter, BarbaraTheresa. Both!  This idea of "God knows your heart" has been used by many to be lazy in many aspects of their spiritual life.

 

Agreed.

3 hours ago, Oremus Pro Invicem said:

ust think of the act of reperation we make to Christ for this insult when we kneel amidst the Roman soldiers in adoration to adore and receive our King!!! At Mass are we not truly present during His Passion?! 

Beautiful!

 

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

3 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I am not saying that posture is unimportant, rather what I said was:

I don't think that we can assess people's reasons and motivations by appearances and nonsense to do so.  For example, I receive in the hand bowing beforehand.  Do you know my personal motivation and reason aside from obedience to my Archbishop's ruling for his diocese?

A person might appear to be very holy and pious, but that is appearances.  Just as you stated "This idea of "God knows your heart" has been used by many to be lazy in many aspects of their spiritual life." so appearances of holiness and piety have been used merely for appearances and with appearances as sole motivation and in a desire that others should think one is holy and pious.

And I do think anyone who would challenge (Book of Samuel) (""7But the LORD said to Samuel: "Do not judge from his appearance or from his lofty stature, because I have rejected him. Not as man sees does God see, because man sees the appearance but the LORD looks into the heart." First Book Samuel chapter 16 http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P7A.HTM)   because it has been "has been used by many to be lazy in many aspects of their spiritual life" confuses me no end because God indeed does know the heart whereas human beings cannot.  Some might be able to deliberately cover their "spiritual laziness" by some Bible quotation, but it is useless to do so because The Lord does indeed know the heart.

I just might be able to get down on my knees if supported, but very much doubt I could get up even with support (physical disability). Hence if someone judged me for not kneeling at any time, it would be false judgement.

I think that we are called as a command not to judge for quite sound and logical reasons - aside from the fact that if we do sit in judgement on others, then we will inherit judgement from God. "Judge not that you may not be judged" ......and ......... "Go and learn what this means: 'I want mercy and not sacrifice,' because I did not come to call righteous people, but sinners."
 

Look at all the people Jesus embraced in His own time on earth who were despised by His fellow believers - solely because of appearances and judgement quite often based on what they were taught.  Jesus contradicted all that by word and by deed. 

I am not saying at all that we should challenge always what we might be taught - nor that posture at Holy Communion is unimportant - rather I am saying how shallow it is to judge by appearances, and how if we do judge by appearances how easily we can be fooled into incorrect judgements.  We are commanded not to judge for quite logical reasons for one.

At this point in time in my own diocese and in most other diocese I know of, we are given a choice of posture to receive Holy Communion and either standing or on the tongue.  We are also asked to bow prior to receiving.

I'm not talking about judging others based on posture. I understand that there are those who physically cannot kneel or are handicapped.  Yet sadly many Catholic who can kneel, do not kneel but use this same extreme of "what about handicapped people" as their deffience to be lazy in their own posture.  

 

3 hours ago, Peace said:

I don't quite follow the logic that one should react to Jesus in the host in exactly the same manner that people treated Jesus when he walked the Earth. He is/was present in two entirely different modes of existence. In Jesus 's second mode of existence he does not have literal eyes, ears, and human flesh...that is not to say that the host should not be adored, of course.

The Eucharist is the True Presence of Christ. It is His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity! This means His eyes are literally there, His ears are literally there, and His flesh is literally there present in the Host. This means Christ is the same in the Host as when He walked on earth! 

[ortus]

18 hours ago, McM RSCJ said:

... the important point is my request that folks on this forum not constantly reaffirm one another in a very narrow view of Catholicism, the calls of the Church and the needs of the world. Let us listen to Pope Francis and go out from our preconceptions of a Church that sits in judgment and hurl stones from on high.

Sister, I am so sorry that you suffered such vitriolic abuse for your heartfelt post. I found it both interesting and heart provoking.

I note that perhaps the most repulsive response you received was from an individual who cast doubt upon your veracity as a committed religious. It is interesting that this individual posts frequently on the Vocation part of this website and presumes to give her advice to those discerning their vocation. One can only hope that she if she is in active vocational discernment, that the communities with which she is in dialogue are aware of her behavior so that they can make an accurate assessment of her character.

[<3 PopeFrancis]

5 hours ago, Oremus Pro Invicem said:

I don't think that we can assess people's reasons and motivations by appearances and nonsense to do so. 

The Church teaches to know God, to love God, and to serve God for the Glory of God.  It is a journey for the Glory of God.

[Quasar]

19 hours ago, McM RSCJ said:

I shared an instance that a) happened b) was done unto me c) was absolutely wrong and close to brutal d) that holds within it the elements the Church knew needed to be reformed.

Sister, I'm sorry for the abusive way you were treated by that priest.  It was abusive and no one should be treated that way.  I'm also sorry for the way you've been treated on this forum. 

[<3 PopeFrancis]

2 hours ago, ortus said:

Sister, I am so sorry that you suffered such vitriolic abuse for your heartfelt post. I found it both interesting and heart provoking.

I note that perhaps the most repulsive response you received was from an individual who cast doubt upon your veracity as a committed religious. It is interesting that this individual posts frequently on the Vocation part of this website and presumes to give her advice to those discerning their vocation. One can only hope that she if she is in active vocational discernment, that the communities with which she is in dialogue are aware of her behavior so that they can make an accurate assessment of her character.

props