Praying In Front Of Statues

[dUSt]

Also, using your interpretation of this verse in Leviticus, it would also prohibit the making of crosses. I'm pretty sure that most Protestant churches have crosses setup in their worship spaces. Just curious--are you opposed to this as well? Please explain why or why not.

God bless.

[the lumberjack]

I know what you're saying dust...and for the most part, you're right about what I'm trying to say.

but, the Modern KJV and the RSV (don't think I've ever used it) are the only two references you list that plainly include the instruction NOT to bow down before it.

and I think you guys use the NAB, right?

so, yeah...you know what I'm trying to say.

God bless.

[Apotheoun]

As the Church Fathers often emphasized, and as the Rabbis openly admitted, the entire Temple complex in Jerusalem was an image of its Heavenly prototype. In both Judaism and Christianity, the image was seen as conveying and manifesting the reality of the thing signified, thus even the ancient Jews held that by worshipping at the Temple, they, in some mysterious way, had entered into Heaven itself.

In fact, even the written word is an icon, and the ancient Jews held that words contained the essence of the thing named, thus, when Adam named the animals in the book of Genesis, he was declaring their essence, for by naming them he knew their very nature. The idea that the "Word," especially the spoken word, but even the written word, was held to be life creating, was foundational for both Judaism and later for Christianity, because both religions hold that God Himself spoke His Word, and all things came into being.

I wrote a paper while finishing my first Bachelors degree at SF State University, and it centers on the concept of iconic participation and its importance in theology, especially in Christianity, which, because of the incarnation, is a dispensation of images, for Christ Himself is the image of the invisible God. To read that paper click on the link below:
[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p38.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p38.htm[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

Lev 26:1 "You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven images or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your hand, to bow done to; for I am the Lord your God"

This part of the Holiness Code is referrring back to the Code of the Covenant in Exodus:23: 20-23
....When my angel goes before you, and brings you in to the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and I blot them out, you shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works, but you shall utterly overthrow them and break their pillars in pieces.


Since we only worship one God, this doesn't apply to us. It does apply to the jews who worshipped calves as soon as they came out of Egypt, or the [i]massebot[/i] Canaanite male fertility symbols.


And since for the first 1500 years or so this wasn't an issue, why is it now?

Edited June 23, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 23 2004, 02:08 PM'] As the Church Fathers often emphasized, and as the Rabbis openly admitted, the entire Temple complex in Jerusalem was an image of its Heavenly prototype. In both Judaism and Christianity, the image was seen as conveying and manifesting the reality of the thing signified, thus even the ancient Jews held that by worshipping at the Temple, they, in some mysterious way, had entered into Heaven itself.

In fact, even the written word is an icon, and the ancient Jews held that words contained the essence of the thing named, thus, when Adam named the animals in the book of Genesis, he was declaring their essence, for by naming them he knew their very nature. The idea that the "Word," especially the spoken word, but even the written word, was held to be life creating, was foundational for both Judaism and later for Christianity, because both religions hold that God Himself spoke His Word, and all things came into being.

I wrote a paper while finishing my first Bachelors degree at SF State University, and it centers on the concept of iconic participation and its importance in theology, especially in Christianity, which, because of the incarnation, is a dispensation of images, for Christ Himself is the image of the invisible God. To read that paper click on the link below:
[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p38.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p38.htm[/url] [/quote]
Can you please put your paper in the Apologetic section?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jun 23 2004, 12:17 PM'] Can you please put your paper in the Apologetic section? [/quote]
i added it to the entry on the communion of saints, under "statues and icons"

[phatcatholic]

while "bow down" holds the implication of "worship" in the verses that put forth the commandments, in need not always hold this implication.

[b]--it depends on the context--[/b]

in other verses of the bible, individuals "bow down" w/ no intent to worship (as in, give to something or someone else what belongs solely to God). likewise, when catholics "bow down" before statues of saints or the holy family our intent is not to worship either.

in Lev and Deut, the obvious context is that God does not want his people worshipping anyone or anything other then himself. that is why he says, "do not bown down." but look at bowing elsewhere in scripture (heck, i'll even use the KJV):

[b]Rev 3:9 [/b]Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
[b]--note:[/b] in the RSV, it is interpreted "bow down" before your feet, but the KJV here proves my point even further by using the word "worship." even when the word [i][b]worship[/b][/i] is used, idolatry is not always taking place. also note that God here is commanding the liars to perform this action.

[b]Gen 19:1 [/b]And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

[b]Gen 42:6 [/b]And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.

[b]Jos 5:14 [/b]And he said, Nay; but as captain F13 of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
[b]--note:[/b] again the word "worship" is used, yet we know that Joshua is not giving the angel "God-required" worship but instead honor and veneration

[b]1 Sam 28:14 [/b]And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

[b]1 Kings 1:23 [/b]And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.

[b]2 Kings 2:15 [/b]And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

[b]1 Chron 21:21 [/b]And as David came to Ornan, Ornan looked and saw David, and went out of the threshingfloor, and bowed himself to David with his face to the ground.

[b]Tobit 12:16 [/b]Then they were both troubled, and fell upon their faces: for they feared.

[b]Judith 14:7 [/b]But when they had recovered him, he fell at Judith's feet, and reverenced her, and said, Blessed art thou in all the tabernacles of Juda, and in all nations, which hearing thy name shall be astonished.

[b]Dan 2:46 [/b]Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.
[b]--note:[/b] there's that word "worship" again

[b]Dan 8:17 [/b]So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

in these verses, individuals are "bowing down" to show honor, veneration, or respect. the word "worship" is even used on occasion, but the context reveals that even this word need not mean "giving to others glory which belongs solely go God."

in short, context is essential to explain the nature and intent of the action

i hope this helps.........pax christi,
phatcatholic

[dUSt]

LJ,

I could understand where you're coming from if a Catholic considered bowing as worshipping. This is what Leviticus is prohibiting. It is not forbidding bowing--it's forbidding bowing as a sign of worship. Again, we should point out that Catholics do not bow towards statues as a sign of worship, but rather, a sign of respect (like them geniuses in the Kung Fu movies do before they whoop up on eachother).

Also, I'm curious to hear your answer on the analogy I presented with the cross. I've seen Protestants pray in front of crosses before. Your opinion on this?

[P3chrmd]

Hey guys!

Interesting topic! Im going to throw myself in the middle here! Someone may have pointed these verses out already...if you have...I'm sorry!

(Using The Jerusalem Bible)

[b]Ex. 25:18-20[/b] For the two ends of this throne of mercy you are to make two golden cherubs (Half-human, half-animal figures, corresponding to the tutelary deities guarding Babylonian shrines); you are to make them of beaten gold. Make the first cherub for one end and the second for the other, and fasten them to the two ends of the throne of mercy so that they make one piece with it. The cherubs are to have their wings spread upwards so that they overshadow the throne of mercy.

[b]Num. 21:8-9[/b] and Yahweh answered him, "Make a fiery serpent and put it on a standard. If anyone is bitten and looks at it, he shall live." So Moses fashioned a bronze serpent which he put on a standard, and if anyone was bitten by a serpent, he looked at the bronze serpent and lived.

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations!

Well, again...I know I'm jumping in the middle here...but oh well! I'll look for more scripture and things to help!

Jesus et Maria, Amos Vos, Salvate Animas
Brandon V.

[qfnol31]

I just like the Eastern view that they're a window to Heaven....

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jun 24 2004, 01:57 AM'] I just like the Eastern view that they're a window to Heaven.... [/quote]
I'll get to your analogy dUSt...but its posts like these that concern me.

a statue being a window to heaven???

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 24 2004, 03:10 AM'] a statue being a window to heaven??? [/quote]
Some would say that the Bible is a window to heaven, but we all know it's not the actual physical Bible, but how that Bible brings us to God. Same concept.

I wear a cross around my neck as a constant reminder of my goal of doing His will. It helps me. The physical helps the spiritual.

God created a physical world. He gave us senses. Why not use [b]all[/b] of our senses for His glory? We see, so we make images that glorify Him. We hear, so we make music that glorifies Him. We taste, so we consume His Body and Blood in remembrance of Him. We smell, so we burn incense as a symbol of our prayers raising up to glorify Him.

God created us as physical beings. If He only wanted us to worship Him mentally, then why give us all these senses? Let's use them all for His glory.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 24 2004, 03:10 AM'] I'll get to your analogy dUSt...but its posts like these that concern me.

a statue being a window to heaven??? [/quote]
LoL, I say that because obviously we can't see Heaven. In fact, since in Heaven most things are incorporeal, then really we won't be able to "see" it with our eyes until the resurrection of the body. Anyways, I digress. Seeing an image of Jesus crucified, or standing there with His arms outstretched gives me hope that He died for me, and teaches me that He is there, looking over us with a great love guiding us and always with us. It's the closest I believe I can come to seeing His face on Earth, and in that way, it is kind of like a "window." There's a sort of barrier by Heaven being seperated from Earth, almost like a wall, but icons especially offer a way to see both there, and also into the past.

Side note on icon paintings, the original artists, who saw Jesus, painted them and taught all their students the same who in turn taught their students, etc..., so the images really stay about the same throughout history. That's what a true icon is.

[P3chrmd]

[quote]Some would say that the Bible is a window to heaven, but we all know it's not the actual physical Bible, but how that Bible brings us to God. Same concept.

I wear a cross around my neck as a constant reminder of my goal of doing His will. It helps me. The physical helps the spiritual.

God created a physical world. He gave us senses. Why not use all of our senses for His glory? We see, so we make images that glorify Him. We hear, so we make music that glorifies Him. We taste, so we consume His Body and Blood in remembrance of Him. We smell, so we burn incense as a symbol of our prayers raising up to glorify Him.

God created us as physical beings. If He only wanted us to worship Him mentally, then why give us all these senses? Let's use them all for His glory. [/quote]

SO GOOD dUST! AWSOME!!!!!

[crusader1234]

I hope this clears things up a bit:

[quote][b]worship[/b]
\Wor"ship\, v. i. To perform acts of homage or adoration; esp., to perform religious service.

Our fathers worshiped in this mountain; and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. --John iv. 20.

Was it for this I have loved . . . and worshiped in silence? --Longfellow.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
[/quote]

[quote][b]venerate[/b]

\Ven"er*ate\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Venerated; p. pr. & vb. n. Venerating.] [L. veneratus, p. p. of venerari to venerate; akin to Venus Venus, Skr. van to like, to wish, and E. winsome. See Winsome.] To regard with reverential respect; to honor with mingled respect and awe; to reverence; to revere; as, we venerate parents and elders.

And seemed to venerate the sacred shade. --Dryden.

I do not know a man more to be venerated for uprightness of heart and loftiness of genius. --Sir W. Scott.

Syn: To reverence; revere; adore; respect.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
[/quote]

We do not worship the cross, we do not worship the Saints, we do not worship the relics... As Catholics we venerate as a sign of respect due to the symbolism involved with the items we are venerating.