Praying In Front Of Statues

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Jun 23 2004, 03:07 AM'] Isn't that what Muslims believe? That's why there are no statues or paintings of people in mosque. [/quote]
It is Haram for any Muslim to depict the following:

-Man
-God
-Animals

For example. St. Sophia's Cathedral was almost completely destroyed on the inside, half the walls are painted over, which had hundreds of years of art on them, also there are a few remaining Icons, with Mary and baby Jesus, but on the left and right, between the Nave Dome, is Allah on the left, and Muhammad on the right, subtly indicating their beliefs over Christians.

[MorphRC]

Some Pictures:

[url="http://www.pbase.com/image/4213467"]http://www.pbase.com/image/4213467[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/image/4213468"]http://www.pbase.com/image/4213468[/url]

[Mary's Knight, La]

lol i dont think this was the point of this thread but i finally learned what is meant when someone says the Catholic Church changed the commandments, i heard that and i couldnt fathom what they meant i knew it couldnt be changing the text because that would have been too easy to debunk the first time it came out but now i know what they mean and how to respond to it

[dUSt]

The Catholic way of numbering the commandments makes so much more sense to me because of this:

"...if adultery and theft belong to two distinct species of moral wrong, the same must be said of the desire to commit these evils."

But yeah, back to the topic. Neither method of numbering the commandments forbids praying in front of statues. It forbids [b]worshiping[/b] statues, which obviously would be absurd. No Catholic I know thinks the statue is anything but plaster. We don't worship pictures of deceased loved ones, so why would anyone think that we worship hunks of marble?

If one is opposed to praying in front of statues because of the graven images commandment, then stop beating around the bush and just say it, "I think Catholics worship statues".

If one doesn't see praying in front of statues as worshipping them, then I'm still waiting on a reason why it's looked down upon in Protestant circles...

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jun 23 2004, 04:15 AM'] Still waiting on a reason why it's looked down upon in Protestant circles... [/quote]
Because Many many protestants think Catholics worship statues, I thought I said so...

[dUSt]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 22 2004, 09:17 PM'] Because Many many protestants think Catholics worship statues, I thought I said so... [/quote]
Okay, but I don't think Lumberjack thinks that, yet, he still looks down on praying in front of statues.

So, for those who don't believe it is worship, what's their reason for thinking it's wrong? I guess that's my question.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jun 22 2004, 09:19 PM'] Okay, but I don't think Lumberjack thinks that, yet, he still looks down on praying in front of statues.

So, for those who don't believe it is worship, what's their reason for thinking it's wrong? I guess that's my question. [/quote]
Reply Lumberjack?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 22 2004, 11:38 AM'] There are highly elaborately done cursive writings that could qualify as paintings, but they depict no people. [/quote]
In Iran (Persia) the Shia Muslims there have depicted images of human beings in Mosques, and for religious purposes in general. Sunni Islam is normally opposed to any human or animal forms being used for any purpose, religious or secular.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 23 2004, 05:47 PM'] In Iran (Persia) the Shia Muslims there have depicted images of human beings in Mosques, and for religious purposes in general. Sunni Islam is normally opposed to any human or animal forms being used for any purpose, religious or secular. [/quote]
Shiites have different beliefs than Sunnais, they believe that their Mollahs, and Sheiks are actually Divine. They interpretate Infallible as godly. They also have different pray styles, holy days and so on.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Jun 23 2004, 02:26 AM']Shiites have different beliefs than Sunnais, they believe that their Mollahs, and Sheiks are actually Divine. They interpretate Infallible as godly. They also have different pray styles, holy days and so on.[/quote]
Just as there are differences between the Sunni and the Shia; there are differences between the various groups of Shia throughout the world. In Iran the 'twelver' form of Shia Islam is practiced. This sect holds that the twelfth Imam, Al-Mahdi, born in 868 AD, went into hiding at the end of the 9th century, i.e., that he went into what is called the "Lesser Occultation," and he did this in order to avoid persecution by the governing authorities of the Caliphal Empire. During the time of the "Lesser Occultation" the Imam al-Mahdi could still communicate with his followers directly, even though he was hidden, but some time later he went into what is called the "Greater Occultation," and since that occurred no direct communication with him is possible, but God miraculously keeps him alive, and it is believed that he will return in order to bring peace and to vindicate his followers by punishing those who have persecuted them. As far as his being "divine" is concerned, the Shia of Iran do believe that he possesses a divine spark, something less than the Christian concept of the incarnation, and so he is not God [i]per se[/i], but he is in some way a manifestation of the divine in the world. The Ayatollah's and Mullah's of today, are considered to be his representatives on earth, and although they cannot communicate directly with him, their guidance of the community is seen as inspired and must not be questioned.

[yiannii]

wouldn't watching the passion of the christ count as idolatory in some people's books?

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jun 22 2004, 08:19 PM'] Okay, but I don't think Lumberjack thinks that, yet, he still looks down on praying in front of statues.

So, for those who don't believe it is worship, what's their reason for thinking it's wrong? I guess that's my question. [/quote]
oh yes you do know, dusty boy. we've discussed this before.

the verse from Leviticus I've posted will sum it up for you...

and, btw, Jason, I need no prompting from you to reply...thank you.

-------

as for not making images, Cmom, you said:

[quote]We are not to worship a graven image, but nowhere does it say we cannot make images. The jews made images of angels to represent God guarding the Ark of the Covanant. So they had no problem with images.[/quote]

Leviticus was pretty good about making and bowing down before an image.

Leviticus 26:1

[b]Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.[/b]

[theculturewarrior]

LJ:

For one, God himself commanded the making of images...the bronze serpent, the Angels on the Arc of the Covenant, and the angels in the temple in the vision of Ezekiel. Therefore, Catholics read the above quote to mean something else.

If images are completely prohibited, then we would have to destroy all art, all sculpture, regardless of it's content. A statue of a cowboy would be flung onto the same dungheap as Michelangelo's Pieta, but I don't think that's what you were talking about.

(But that is what the scrupulous interpretation of the commandment is, and it is present in 7th c. eastern iconoclasm, as well as islam, and finally, fundamentalist Christianity.)

It must mean something else because God commanded the Israelites to make graven images as stated above. Catholics interpret that contextually to mean that graven images are not objectively bad, but rather, it depends on what the image is of, and how the image is to be used.

Because Jesus came to us in the flesh, images are okay now, because Jesus was true God and true man, and you can make an image of a man. We can also make images of Saints, because they like us are flesh and blood. And God himself commanded images of angels to be made.

Now, it has to do with intent. We would not make an image of Molech, not for latria or dulia. We read the OT commandments as forbidding such things. But an image of Saint Francis is different, because, 1.) we don't worship the image, and 2.) We know the image is not God, not above God, and is of a man, who is in heaven worshipping God.

Can't you see the difference?

[Justified Saint]

Rather Leviticus warns against worshiping idols and statues. Praying/kneeling before an image doesn't demand worship since that is not what is going on in the heart's and mind's of God's faithful. Worship is in the heart and mind as much as anything else - you don't have to erect physical statues and graven images to worship idols.

[dUSt]

Okay, forgive me LJ. I must have forgot we talked about this before. I'm involved with so many different things it's easy to get thrown off.

I see how you're interpreting Leviticus, and I respect that. I am unclear though if you think that Leviticus is telling us to not make statues at all, or if you think it's telling us to not worship statues. I don't think you think Catholics worship statues (because you've been around us long enough to know that), so I'm assuming you think Leviticus is instructing us to not even make statues, period. Am I correct in assuming this?

Also, I think it's a good idea to look at several different English translations of the same verse:

[b]NAB:[/b] "Do not make false gods for yourselves. You shall not erect an idol or a sacred pillar for yourselves, nor shall you set up a stone figure for worship in your land; for I, the LORD, am your God."

[b]Douay Rheims:[/b] "I am the Lord your God. You shall not make to yourselves any idol or graven thing: neither shall you erect pillars, nor set up a remarkable stone in your land, to adore it. For I am the Lord your God."

[b]Modern KJV:[/b] "You shall make no idols to yourselves; and you shall not set up for yourselves graven images, or a memorial pillar. And you shall not set up any image of stone in your land in order to bow down to it. For I am the LORD your God."

[b]RSV:[/b] "Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God."

Now, to me, this verse is clearly a declaration by God that He is the one and only God, and we should not worship anything besides him--the first commandment. He's instructing the people of the time (who [b]did[/b] worship statues and pillars) that HE was God. You'll notice that God doesn't say that images should not be created at all, as in every translation, it's followed by "to adore" or "to bow down before it" or "for worship". This is what leads me to believe that his commandment was not against making images, but worshipping them--which , of course, nobody should do.

I think I'm going to study the history and background of Leviticus now, as I'll admit to never doing that yet... maybe it'll help me put this into a better context.