Peace Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 10 hours ago, truthfinder said: Hi phamily, I wanted to ask you what you thought of when you heard this term. I'm not asking for the historical definition. Rather, it seems the term has become modified as a descriptor (sort of like how liberal or conservative can mean anything). So, if you were to read a sentence that said something like "the church has been affected by Jansenism until Vatican II" what exactly does Jansenism conjure in your mind in this context. Please do not turn this into a Vat II debate. I could use other examples, this is just a paraphrase of the most recent mention I've come across. Cheers! I think that it is a bit like Jainism, but with a slightly more European flair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) When I think of Jansenism: An emphasis on God's Justice without insight at all that His Mercy flows from His Justice. Jansenism for me as an understanding is also an emphasis on unrelenting strict moral demands and strict and demanding asceticism - or what I must be about to be saved, rather than an emphasis on what I need be open to receive and why - without any sort of deserving at all. The latter walks the way of (a sort of stunned) praise and thanksgiving. The former walks the way of fear. Edited August 25, 2016 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 9 hours ago, truthfinder said: Yes, but I want to know what the general Catholic populace might think when they hear "the society was governed by Jansenists until the 1960s." I don't need an actual definition. What sort of attributes would a 'Jansenist' society have in, say, 1920. Just as America is described as having purantanistic tendencies into today in regards to sex and alcohol consumption, despite what Puritans actually believed in regards to these subjects. That was what I think when I hear "Jansenism" I'm afraid. Characteristics would be essentially Puritanical Catholicism. Joyless, hyper scrupulous, uptight people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 17 hours ago, truthfinder said: @NadaTeTurbe I particularly think you've touched on what I was getting at. Any ideas on why people might use "jansenism" rather than any other term? Thought just came to me: jansenism is bad epitaph describing French-related countries, whereas Puritanism describing similar American tendencies? Protestantism/calvinism ? It wasn't far from it... More seriously, scrupulous, like PP said, is a good word. Jansenism is a religious and political who is inextricably linked with gallicanism and XVIIth century France, while scruple is a spiritual disease that cross times and places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted August 25, 2016 Author Share Posted August 25, 2016 11 minutes ago, NadaTeTurbe said: Protestantism/calvinism ? It wasn't far from it... More seriously, scrupulous, like PP said, is a good word. Jansenism is a religious and political who is inextricably linked with gallicanism and XVIIth century France, while scruple is a spiritual disease that cross times and places. Ooh Gallicanism, my favourite! Not really, but it comes up in my research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 10 minutes ago, truthfinder said: Ooh Gallicanism, my favourite! Not really, but it comes up in my research. I still have nightmares about gallicanism since last semesters. What is you research field ? There was an amazing book about jansenism and Port Royal abbey published two or three years ago. It's called "Port Royal" and it's every writings and historian works about Port Royal, all of it in one book : https://www.amazon.fr/Port-Royal-Laurence-Plazenet/dp/2081286173/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472143271&sr=8-1&keywords=Port+Royal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted August 25, 2016 Author Share Posted August 25, 2016 2 hours ago, NadaTeTurbe said: I still have nightmares about gallicanism since last semesters. What is you research field ? There was an amazing book about jansenism and Port Royal abbey published two or three years ago. It's called "Port Royal" and it's every writings and historian works about Port Royal, all of it in one book : https://www.amazon.fr/Port-Royal-Laurence-Plazenet/dp/2081286173/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472143271&sr=8-1&keywords=Port+Royal I'll send you a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<3 PopeFrancis Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 21 hours ago, PhuturePriest said: Building on what Nihil said, Jansenism is predicated on elevating the Divinity of Jesus to the point of abolishing his humanity. This is what I've heard of it. I heard there were heresies in which the opposite was the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 29 minutes ago, <3 PopeFrancis said: This is what I've heard of it. I heard there were heresies in which the opposite was the case. Pelagianism, in a certain sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<3 PopeFrancis Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 14 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said: Pelagianism, in a certain sense. I don't really understand Pelagianism. The heresy seems subtle but extremely dangerous. I was thinking more of Manichaeism. They are similar in the way way apples and oranges are different but are the both fruit. I mean Pelagianism and Manichaeism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<3 PopeFrancis Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) 21 hours ago, truthfinder said: Yes, but I want to know what the general Catholic populace might think when they hear "the society was governed by Jansenists until the 1960s." I don't need an actual definition. What sort of attributes would a 'Jansenist' society have in, say, 1920. Just as America is described as having purantanistic tendencies into today in regards to sex and alcohol consumption, despite what Puritans actually believed in regards to these subjects. Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition. Maybe McCarthy in the 1950's. Today Catholic tendencies to it in regards to homosexuality might be why Pope Francis seems to take them 'under his wing so to say. Edited August 25, 2016 by <3 PopeFrancis I missed a word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 I was reading Predestination by Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, and there was a fascinating contest between predestinationism on one hand and Pelagianism on the other, with Catholic predestination being the true golden mean. It was a sense in which I had not considered Pelagianism before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<3 PopeFrancis Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Yes. It does sound like this would be some interesting debating . I will check it out. 1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said: Predestination by Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange Is this a novel or non-fiction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Very exciting sci-fi. No, it is scholastic theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<3 PopeFrancis Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Yes. I don't really know about all of the heresies and the ones I do know something about I mix up. I never read about heresies only generally. I admit I'm curious about them but I didn't make it a priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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