Jansenism

[truthfinder]

Hi phamily,

I wanted to ask you what you thought of when you heard this term.  I'm not  asking for the historical definition. Rather, it seems the term has become modified as a descriptor (sort of like how liberal or conservative can mean anything).  So, if you were to read a sentence that said something like "the church has been affected by Jansenism until Vatican II" what exactly does Jansenism conjure in your mind in this context.  Please do not turn this into a Vat II debate.  I could use other examples, this is just a paraphrase of the most recent mention I've come across. 

Cheers!

[NadaTeTurbe]

I've spend the last semester studying jansenism with br. Stéphane Marie Morgain, O.C.D., my teacher in modern history. 

Like everybody, I thought jansenist were austere, kind of "you're going to hell whatever you do". I even thought François de Sales fought jansenism. But in fact, the only "austere" thing with jansenism was their relationship with the eucharist. They were more protestant than catholic (their ideas of grace, etc...) and very close to gallicanism. I think "jansenism" is a word people use without knowing what it means. 

[Nihil Obstat]

My general/not detailed impression of Jansenism is those people who basically think everything is a sin. All modern music, all movies, and clothing that shows more than an inch of skin, etc. Talking in church, mortal sin. Forgetting to say grace before a meal, mortal sin. You know.

[Seven77]

 I like to think of it as limiting the mercy of God. You have to deserve love and mercy and forgiveness (As opposed to simply repenting sincerely and asking for forgiveness)… you have to deserve something that God gives as a free gift. You have to deserve being able to receive Holy Communion. It's treating grace like a prize for the “worthy."

[truthfinder]

Thanks guys. I hope there will be more responses yet. 

@NadaTeTurbe I particularly think you've touched on what I was getting at.  Any ideas on why people might use "jansenism" rather than any other term? 

Thought just came to me: jansenism is bad epitaph describing French-related countries, whereas Puritanism describing similar American tendencies?

[Nihil Obstat]

2 hours ago, truthfinder said:

Thanks guys. I hope there will be more responses yet. 

@NadaTeTurbe I particularly think you've touched on what I was getting at.  Any ideas on why people might use "jansenism" rather than any other term? 

Thought just came to me: jansenism is bad epitaph describing French-related countries, whereas Puritanism describing similar American tendencies?

I might not be the most illustrative example, but with regards to modern 'Jansenist tendencies' I tend to think Ireland before France.

[truthfinder]

16 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I might not be the most illustrative example, but with regards to modern 'Jansenist tendencies' I tend to think Ireland before France.

I think you would be correct in terms of 'actual' history.  One of the most common examples I've come across is actually rooted in anti-Catholicism: ie Quebec was held back by Jansenism until 1930, 1950, Vat II (pick your historian) which kept it 1. stupid, 2. backwards, 3. economically stunted, or 4. a priest-ridden society where people gave up their consciences to the clergy. 

But I've yet to determine what these writers mean by Jansenism in this regard, with it being effectively stamped out imo by late 1700s- I'm currently interested in seeing to what extent Jansenism was present in Quebec prior to this. 

[PhuturePriest]

Building on what Nihil said, Jansenism is predicated on elevating the Divinity of Jesus to the point of abolishing his humanity. Treating him as something so good, perfect, indefectible, and untouchable, that we tread near him on eggshells and dare not speak of him in intimate or loving terms, but rather terms that denote his power and omniscience.

In short, it is the polar opposite of liberalism.

[truthfinder]

44 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

Building on what Nihil said, Jansenism is predicated on elevating the Divinity of Jesus to the point of abolishing his humanity. Treating him as something so good, perfect, indefectible, and untouchable, that we tread near him on eggshells and dare not speak of him in intimate or loving terms, but rather terms that denote his power and omniscience.

In short, it is the polar opposite of liberalism.

Yes, but I want to know what the general Catholic populace might think when they hear "the society was governed by Jansenists until the 1960s." I don't need an actual definition. What sort of attributes would a 'Jansenist' society have in, say, 1920.  Just as America is described as having purantanistic tendencies into today in regards to sex and alcohol consumption, despite what Puritans actually believed in regards to these subjects. 

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Have you read Angela's Ashes by Frank McCourt?

[Luigi]

When I've read the term, it has been in regard to certain 19th century Belgian missionaries to the US. The author mentioned that they leaned toward Jansenism in such things as: telling married couples they were not to kiss, except as a prelude to sex; withholding absolution in confession if they thought the penitent wasn't contrite enough (in the priest's estimation); rather severe penances associated with confession; and forbidding "pleasures" in areas such as clothing (nothing too fancy) and food (no 'extras' such as desserts, even on holidays). 

So, austere, or demanding, or severe, rather than loving, or supportive, or encouraging. 

[truthfinder]

28 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Have you read Angela's Ashes by Frank McCourt?

No I haven't

2 minutes ago, Luigi said:

When I've read the term, it has been in regard to certain 19th century Belgian missionaries to the US. The author mentioned that they leaned toward Jansenism in such things as: telling married couples they were not to kiss, except as a prelude to sex; withholding absolution in confession if they thought the penitent wasn't contrite enough (in the priest's estimation); rather severe penances associated with confession; and forbidding "pleasures" in areas such as clothing (nothing too fancy) and food (no 'extras' such as desserts, even on holidays). 

So, austere, or demanding, or severe, rather than loving, or supportive, or encouraging. 

A sort of joyless Catholicism. I know there were certain movements amongst Quebec Catholicism that joined the temperance movement with anti-tabacco, anti-dancing mentality into the 1950s

[Nihil Obstat]

Really interesting more-or-less autobiographical book by a man who immigrated as a child to the US from Ireland. Fallen away Catholic unfortunately, but grew up very Catholic. There was one scene I remember in particular on the day of his first Communion, and with all the excitement he ended up throwing up in his grandmother's back yard, and she kept sending him back into the confessional, first to confess throwing up Jesus in her backyard, and then to get more and more detailed advice from the priest for how to properly dispose of the puke.  Angela's Ashes sort of represents the Irish Jansenism I am thinking about, for me.

It is an irreverent book (three books, actually), but I would recommend it. Frank McCourt was an excellent writer.

[truthfinder]

2 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Really interesting more-or-less autobiographical book by a man who immigrated as a child to the US from Ireland. Fallen away Catholic unfortunately, but grew up very Catholic. There was one scene I remember in particular on the day of his first Communion, and with all the excitement he ended up throwing up in his grandmother's back yard, and she kept sending him back into the confessional, first to confess throwing up Jesus in her backyard, and then to get more and more detailed advice from the priest for how to properly dispose of the puke.  Angela's Ashes sort of represents the Irish Jansenism I am thinking about, for me.

It is an irreverent book (three books, actually), but I would recommend it. Frank McCourt was an excellent writer.

I'll have to check it out. 

I'm sort of seeing a trend in the posts - Jansenism being a by-word for an almost scrupulous Catholicism arising also from a poor catechism (or misplaced catechetical zeal).   A sort of folk religion on the other end of the spectrum from superstitious beliefs. 

[Nihil Obstat]

I would agree with that characterization for myself.