guns v murder rate

[KnightofChrist]

I thought for a moment Dairy girl had returned. Oh well.

[Didacus]

On 11/27/2017 at 2:02 PM, havok579257 said:

the criminals?  knives and swords?  so your rationale is since we can't stop all murders using anything for a weapon, why try to stop any.  should we have the same mindset for abortion?  since we can't stop all abortions in this country why even try changing the laws?

 

please don't try to argue someone can commit mass murder with a knife comparable to a gun.  do you really believe the vegas or texas church shootings would have happened if the criminals only had a knife?  would they even have attempted it?  or that your more likely to die from from someone attacking you with a knife compared to a gun.

Do not confuse making guns legal by equating endorsing murder - not the same thing.

And yes the impact of a gun in mass shootings is a strong argument.  However my point overall still stands - the act and the method are seperate issues altogether.

 

 

Case in point - in Canada some 10+ years ago a deranged individual in Alberta killed someone on a bus, to the point where the murderer decapitated the victim and show-boated the head to other passengers.  It was a horrific story.

Some politicians, in their 'brilliance', immediately started pandering banning knives and sharp weapons as a result.  

Horrific as the incident was, i hope you can agree the politician's reaction to ban knives was absurd...

If that is the case that you agree them were is the line to be drawn?  And the center of the discussion is the method... not the purpose of the act.

 

[hakutaku]

Owning a gun makes people more likely to murder themselves:

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2019-06-07/gun-ownership-associated-with-higher-risk-of-suicide-for-soldiers

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/firearm-availability-suicide.html

Edited January 10, 2021 by hakutaku

[Didacus]

On 8/10/2016 at 9:34 AM, Papist said:

How about a law that makes it illegal to murder?

No one will ever support that, come on!

[debc]

My friend from the UK points out to people someone with a knife going crazy on a bus or town square hurts a lot less than an automatic rifle many men think it's their right to own. (do they hunt with it??)

Laws don't curb many crimes, but lessening the chance of getting hold of weapons made for war helps a little. No one should be able to fire 50 rounds of bullets at children with a gun he bought last week.

 

[fides' Jack]

On 8/11/2021 at 4:24 PM, debc said:

My friend from the UK points out to people someone with a knife going crazy on a bus or town square hurts a lot less than an automatic rifle many men think it's their right to own. (do they hunt with it??)

I'm fairly certain there's no country where it's legal to own an automatic rifle.  Certainly not in the US of A.

[debc]

21 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

I'm fairly certain there's no country where it's legal to own an automatic rifle.  Certainly not in the US of A.

Guns that fire many times are available in the US and shouldn't be used by civilians. Up until 1986 you could buy many but now you can google sales at most gun stores of rifles etc, semi automatics,  that fire 20, 30 or 50 rounds. School shooters tend to love those. Those boring pistols that shoot one at a time and you have to load take much too much time. You can buy bullets that pierce bullet proof vests, it's crazy. No one needs those things. They can be 100, 300 or thousands of dollars. Guns shows have little regulations and people stockpile these weapons "as their right".

Criminals will always get guns if they know someone or steal one, but these weapons have been used to slaughter so many at once. It's just not right.

Edited August 14, 2021 by debc

[ZeroM]

Quote

I'm fairly certain there's no country where it's legal to own an automatic rifle.

Afghanistan, Cyprus, South Africa, Somalia, Libya

[debc]

It's scary some people are always preparing for a war and maybe for some it's a show of power. "look what I have" A neighbor moved to Georgia and was shocked to see a gun case full when she went to the bathroom at a beauty parlor years ago. The owner said her home had too many so her husband kept some here. She didn't say anything.  I think it's sad but it's something in the heart and soul that has to change.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/reports/2019/08/12/473528/assault-weapons-high-capacity-magazines-must-banned/

This happened after the last horrible mass shooting in my state in 2012

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-gun-shows/gun-enthusiasts-pack-shows-to-buy-assault-weapons-idUSBRE8BL0DP20121222

 

[fides' Jack]

On 8/13/2021 at 6:04 PM, debc said:

Guns that fire many times are available in the US

That's not what was brought up.  I said automatic rifles.  And those are very illegal to possess, except in very rare cases (an individual like myself cannot get a license for them).

 

On 8/13/2021 at 6:04 PM, debc said:

Up until 1986 you could buy many but now you can google sales at most gun stores of rifles etc, semi automatics

What happened in 1986?  Do you know what semiautomatic means?  Almost all guns made in the last 50 years are semiautos.  

Are you saying people should only be allowed to buy guns that have to be cocked for every single round?

On 8/14/2021 at 5:04 AM, debc said:

The owner said her home had too many so her husband kept some here. She didn't say anything.  I think it's sad but it's something in the heart and soul that has to change.

Meaningless gobbledygook.  Why does it have to change?  Do you believe guns are intrinsically evil?

On 8/13/2021 at 6:04 PM, debc said:

Guns shows have little regulations and people stockpile these weap

Gun shows are required to follow all the same regulations and procedures that gun stores do.  This is a false statement.

On 8/13/2021 at 6:04 PM, debc said:

"as their right".

Yes, it is their constitutional right.  If you disagree with the constitution, you're part of the problem, not the solution.

On 8/13/2021 at 6:04 PM, debc said:

that fire 20, 30 or 50 rounds

All guns can fire 20, 30, or 50 rounds.  Be more specific.

On 8/13/2021 at 6:04 PM, debc said:

Criminals will always get guns if they know someone or steal one, but these weapons have been used to slaughter so many at once.

Yes, by criminals.  

Did you know that in 2017, the highest year on record before the plandemic, 40,000 people died by firearms of any kind in the US?  Of that number, the vast, vast majority was gang-on-gang violence.  A few hundred people died due to what is considered by the government to be "mass shootings" (quotes used because the definition of the term is highly malleable).  

Contrast that in the same year, government estimates put the number of people saved by firearm use up to possibly 500,000.  

The United States is not like other countries.  If you ban guns, more people will die.  It's a fact.  The highest gun violence death numbers happen in areas with the greatest limits to the 2nd amendment.  And the numbers show that in fact, the areas with the highest gun ownership rates have the lowest gun fatalities.  Most often that means those pesky, conservative, middle-country areas are the safest - but that's not just because of guns.  We're also God-fearing people, and that has a much bigger impact.

[debc]

Guns shows do have different regulations and many criminals or people with mental health issues or felonies buy them there. My husband was a police officer for 30 years.  I know the stats, I know both sides.

At gun shows, both official firearms retailers and private individuals sell and trade firearms to large numbers of potential buyers and traders. These gun transfers are not regulated by law in most states.

This lack of regulation is called the "gun show loophole." It is praised by gun rights advocates but denounced by gun control supporters, as the loophole allows persons who would not be able to pass a Brady Act gun buyer background check to obtain firearms.  In 33 states, there are currently no laws—federal or state—regulating firearms sales between private individuals at gun shows. 14 States had regulations as of 1/2021.

I don't think if someone wants 30 or 50 rifles that fire 50 rounds in a few seconds it's for "hunting" . If anyone thinks there will be another civil war as some were talking back then in Georgia with my friend or some nuclear war or attack, they can stockpile all they want, it's a false security at best but they can. I don't want to disarm everyone, my husband owned a gun, but why these guns? Why the number of them? The constitution gave a right to bear arms but I doubt they knew what it would mean later

Using an assault weapon and a drum magazine that held 100 rounds, the assailant in the 2019 Dayton, Ohio mass shooting, was able to fire at least 41 rounds of ammunition in less than 30 seconds, killing nine people and wounding 26 others.2

The shooter in the 2017 Las Vegas massacre was able to fire 100 rounds in just 10 seconds—without having to pause and reload—because he used a large capacity magazine, bump stock, and an assault rifle in his attack which killed 50 and injured hundreds.

I don't want to debate it, I think there should be harsher regulations and background checks. Black market will get their share but many of the mass shootings and others were bought legally. It will never end it but you have to at least try. I agree to disagree.

 

 

[fides' Jack]

15 minutes ago, debc said:

I don't think if someone wants 30 or 50 rifles that fire 50 rounds in a few seconds it's for "hunting"

Ok, so now you're getting more specific.

There are no semiauto rifles that fire 50 rounds in, say, 3 seconds - even with a bump stock.  Some fully autos can, but you'd have to have one heck of a magazine.  That kind of magazine is illegal in my state, and it would make the gun pretty difficult to use, and it would be impossible to use accurately.  Might be fun to take to a range though.

And the gun show loophole is a myth:

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/myth-busted-the-gun-show-loophole

17 minutes ago, debc said:

but why these guns? Why the number of them?

Which guns, specifically?  

20 minutes ago, debc said:

If anyone thinks there will be another civil war as some were talking back then in Georgia with my friend or some nuclear war or attack, they can stockpile all they want, it's a false security at best but they can.

Yes, thank you, they can.  That's the point of the 2nd Amendment - to protect against a tyrannical government, which looks more and more possible every single day.

22 minutes ago, debc said:

The constitution gave a right to bear arms but I doubt they knew what it would mean later

I would say that, in fact, they knew better than most people today, including yourself, what it would mean later.  They were trying to protect you.  And that law served very, very well for a long time, until the lies of communism started tearing this country apart over the last several decades.

24 minutes ago, debc said:

The shooter in the 2017 Las Vegas massacre was able to fire 100 rounds in just 10 seconds

I read 90, not 100.  It's a significant enough difference when you're talking about firing speed.  As I said, no semiauto rifle can shoot 50 rounds in 3 seconds, even with a bump stock.

25 minutes ago, debc said:

and an assault rifle in his attack which killed 50 and injured hundreds.

Assault rifle is a made-up term that also carries a whole slew of definitions.  The stats are clear - if you really want to save lives, you'd be attacking handguns, and not rifles.

26 minutes ago, debc said:

Black market will get their share but many of the mass shootings and others were bought legally

Define "many".  Be specific.

You'll find that many of them were obtained illegally.

[Anomaly]

Did you know that gunshots are not even in the top twenty causes of death or injuries in persons 14 to 19 years old?    (It’s less in younger persons)

 

For 14 to 60, unintentional death by firearm is 15th.  You’re six times more likely to drown.  10 times more likely to fall and die.  160+ times more likely to die of drug overdose. 
 

Check it out on CDC yourself.  
 

So given the difficulty to eliminate guns, and the minor benefit relative to the effort, isn’t there more substantial dangers in society that should be addressed instead of using hun hysteria to signal how virtuous one is?    
 

If society could reduce drug/poisoning deaths by 1%, that’s almost twice the lives saved by ALL the guns in the US magically disappearing.  

DO YOU WANT TO SAVE LIVES OR JUST GET RID OF GUNS?

[hakutaku]

3 hours ago, Anomaly said:

For 14 to 60, unintentional death by firearm is 15th.  You’re six times more likely to drown.  10 times more likely to fall and die.  160+ times more likely to die of drug overdose. 

More people kill themselves with their guns than kill others.

[Luigi]

53 minutes ago, hakutaku said:

More people kill themselves with their guns than kill others.

Someone who wants to kill herself will find a way, whether there's a gun handy or not.