theculturewarrior Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 If man is incapable of doing good, how can he choose Christ? Isn't that something good? If man is incapable of doing good, how can he repent, or love, or do any of the things Jesus told us to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 [quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Jun 20 2004, 11:57 PM'] If man is incapable of doing good, how can he choose Christ? Isn't that something good? If man is incapable of doing good, how can he repent, or love, or do any of the things Jesus told us to do? [/quote] Ladies and Gentlemen, the textbook reply to why we aren't total bastards. Plus God made us in his image so there's gotta be something good there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 [quote]If man is incapable of doing good, how can he choose Christ? Isn't that something good?[/quote] Because God reaches down, picks sinful, wretched man up out of the raging waters in which he has [i]already drowned[/i], and breathes life into him so that he may believe. You are presupposing an autonomy in man that Scripture does not warrant, in fact, speaks against! (Cf. Ephesians 2 "dead in your sins and transgressions") [quote]If man is incapable of doing good, how can he repent, or love, or do any of the things Jesus told us to do?[/quote] Repentance is a gift of God, and is given by grace alone, independent of any merit whatsoever. Acts of "Love" can be performed by the unregenerate man, but only to please the desires of the flesh, and never with the aim of pleasing Almighty God - rather, for this latter motive, God must give him the grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Well, if I remember correctly, the standard reply to this is that we don't choose Christ -- he chooses us (that's the "I" part of TULIP -- Irresistible grace). If we've been predestined to be saved, we are unable to resist God's call in our lives -- we will be saved no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted June 21, 2004 Author Share Posted June 21, 2004 Then what does it mean to be a free rational being? Did God create us free, and if so, why are we free to choose to do evil if not to choose to do good? If we are not free to choose to do good or evil, then why did God create evil? If repentance is not a choice we make, as well as a grace from God, then why doesn't God just have everybody repent and be united with Him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 [quote]Then what does it mean to be a free rational being? Did God create us free, and if so, why are we free to choose to do evil if not to choose to do good?[/quote] Unregenerate man can do 'good' - but not with the aim of pleasing God. [quote]If we are not free to choose to do good or evil, then why did God create evil?[/quote] God did not create evil, God foreknew evil. Also, man originally had Free Will in the sense you are defining it. He chose to sin, so his free will was destroyed. He can no longer choose God unless God gives him the ability to do so. [quote]If repentance is not a choice we make, as well as a grace from God, then why doesn't God just have everybody repent and be united with Him?[/quote] So that mercy will be shown by the severity of condemnation. If God were to save everybody, then it would just be a slap on the wrist. By reprobating some, God shows just how merciful He is in allowing some of us wicked sinners to repent and spend eternal bliss with Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 So God can foreknow someting without determining or creating it? How do you distinguish between what God merely foreknows and what he actually creates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 [quote name='Justified Saint' date='Jun 21 2004, 12:17 PM'] So God can foreknow someting without determining or creating it? How do you distinguish between what God merely foreknows and what he actually creates? [/quote] God sees all points in Eternity, therefore, He can only foreknow things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 So then are you saying that what God foreknows he did not determine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 The Catholic Church allows a separation between what God wills and what he passively allows to happen. Calvin did not allow for this separation so he was forced to posit a separation between God's revealed will and his secret will. The Catholic Church does not allow this separation. God wills that none should sin, that all should be saved, etc. Calvin's system also left him in a conundrum as to where sin came from. He was forced to simply leave it up to mystery. Beza was a little more logically consistent, calling God the "sinless author of sin." Ss. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, on the other hand, taught that the moral freedom of God's created beings was the originator of evil. So, God only indirectly caused evil by creating beings with the autonomy to freely choose evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Indeed, I have often found Calvinists forced to admit that sin and evil were ulitmately willed by God and a part of his plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 21 2004, 02:10 PM'] Unregenerate man can do 'good' - but not with the aim of pleasing God. [/quote] I find that a bit inconsistent. Can good really be separated from God? How can something be objectively good if God doesn't play any role in it? Good is good because God willed it to be good, and if non-Christians do good, they're doing God's will -- whether they know it or not. Non-Christians often do good to please God, as many of them would admit. And, if they do something that is objectively good, then it must follow that they have some (however limited) sense of the true God; otherwise, how would they know if something was objectively good? God bless, Jennifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 I'd go back to the definition of evil...it's the absense (and/or perversion) of good. God is good and everything He created was good, therefore He didn't create evil. How is man incapable of doing something good? I don't understand why he wouldn't be able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 [quote]How is man incapable of doing something good? I don't understand why he wouldn't be able to.[/quote] The action would be inherently good, but not meritorious because the person would be unregenerate. Unregenerate men are enemies of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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