Guest Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Looks shopped, I can tell because of the pixels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I'm curious about thoughts on the quote.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Well clearly it's an incomplete quote - that what the ellipsis dots indicate. What's the full quote? "May St. John the Baptist protect Islam from false leaders? from fringe elements within its own ranks? I've just done a quick search for the full quote on Google and I can't find it. The only links that come up are from "The V-II Church is NOT the Catholic Church" and groups like that. Does anyone in the Pham have a book of John Paul II quotes that can complete the quotation? Until I see the full quotation, and know the context in which it was spoken or written, then No, I don't have any thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Well the complete sentence is... "May Saint John Baptist protect Islam and all the people of Jordan, and all who participated in this celebration, a memorable celebration. I’m very grateful to all of you." Source By "Islam" the Pope could have meant the individual persons who are of Islam, or he could have meant the religion of Islam. Nothing wrong with asking a Saint to protect individuals. But Islam is false, and Saint John the Baptist cannot protect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 40 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: Well the complete sentence is... "May Saint John Baptist protect Islam and all the people of Jordan, and all who participated in this celebration, a memorable celebration. I’m very grateful to all of you." Source By "Islam" the Pope could have meant the individual persons who are of Islam, or he could have meant the religion of Islam. Nothing wrong with asking a Saint to protect individuals. But Islam is false, and Saint John the Baptist cannot protect it. Perhaps you can pray for religion X (not Catholic) if people would otherwise fall to religion Y (worse than X) instead. And perhaps we can pray for certain things to be upheld because, although false, they serve as a path or temporary stop along the way to the truth. Should we pray for the downfall of the Southern Baptists and Anglicans? I was once Protestant before I became Catholic. I wouldn't necessarily exclude my Protestant days from God's providence. And I would not necessarily conclude that God does not have a use for other religions. I don't know one way or the other. But if He does, I don't see why the saints cannot protect them. I think that the Church has made it clear that God acts through non-Catholic Christian communities of faith, but I am not sure if that would extend to other groups as well. Certainly there are great truths that can be found in most religions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Peace said: Perhaps you can pray for religion X (not Catholic) if people would otherwise fall to religion Y (worse than X) instead. We cannot do evil so good may come from it. Can we praise birthday cake X (10% Sodium fluoride) if people would otherwise eat birthday cake Y (15% Sodium fluoride)? 1 hour ago, Peace said: And perhaps we can pray for certain things to be upheld because, although false, they serve as a path or temporary stop along the way to the truth. Should we pray for the downfall of the Southern Baptists and Anglicans? I was once Protestant before I became Catholic. I wouldn't necessarily exclude my Protestant days from God's providence. I think we can appreciate the elements of truths found in false religions, because those truths are truth despite the false religion, but we can't pray for or honor false religions. Because all false religions endanger souls, no matter the truths found in them. To continue the metaphor we can also appreciate the none deadly ingredients of a poisoned cake, we just can't appreciate the poisoned cake. Because cake that is poisoned endangers peoples lives, no matter the tasty and good ingredients in it. The Church calls us to unite our will with God the Father, who wills to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. So if we obey that and pray for it, it would effectively be a praying to end all other religions, just not as hyperbolic. 1 hour ago, Peace said: And I would not necessarily conclude that God does not have a use for other religions. I don't know one way or the other. But if He does, I don't see why the saints cannot protect them. I think that the Church has made it clear that God acts through non-Catholic Christian communities of faith, but I am not sure if that would extend to other groups as well. Certainly there are great truths that can be found in most religions. God does not use false religions. Revealed truth teaches us that the gods of false religions are devils and that false worship of the true God is offensive to or does not please God. Asking a Saint to protect a false religion would be like asking a baker to praise a poisoned cake. I believe Pope John Paul II was talking about the people, individuals who belong to Islam, and not talking about Islam as a religion. But again we can appreciate truths where ever they are found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) 56 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: We cannot do evil so good may come from it. Thank you for the clarification. Now the only thing you need to do is demonstrate that praying for religion X is evil. Quote Can we praise birthday cake X (10% Sodium fluoride) if people would otherwise eat birthday cake Y (15% Sodium fluoride)? Yes. For the reason that cake X gives the person a better chance of survival than cake Y. Of course, cake Z (0% Sodium fluoride) would be more praiseworthy than both. Quote I think we can appreciate the elements of truths found in false religions, because those truths are truth despite the false religion, This strikes me as kind of a "all or none" mentality. You can praise Islam for being a monotheistic religion, can you not? You can praise Islam for being recognizing the God of Abraham, can you not? Quote but we can't pray for or honor false religions. Why? There are parts to them that are honorable, are there not? Are we to only to honor things that are perfect? Quote Because all false religions endanger souls, no matter the truths found in them. They might all endanger souls in comparison to the Catholic faith, but again, we are not dealing with an either/or situation here. Let's say I have a friend from an Asian or Middle Eastern country who has never heard the gospel. Can I pray "God I hope that my friend will come to enter the Catholic Church, but if that does not happen, I hope that my friend may come to know you through another Christian community of faith?" Do you deny that God works through non-Catholic communities of faith? Quote To continue the metaphor we can also appreciate the none deadly ingredients of a poisoned cake, we just can't appreciate the poisoned cake. Because cake that is poisoned endangers peoples lives, no matter the tasty and good ingredients in it. I think that we have already discussed this. Quote God does not use false religions. According to who? How do you know what God uses and what God does not use? How do you know that it was not God's will that I became a protestant on my way to becoming Catholic? Do you have some unique access to the divine will that I am not aware of? Quote Revealed truth teaches us that the gods of false religions are devils and that false worship of the true God is offensive to or does not please God. So then is it safe to assume that you believe that our Jewish brothers and sisters worship a devil? Quote Asking a Saint to protect a false religion would be like asking a baker to praise a poisoned cake. I believe Pope John Paul II was talking about the people, individuals who belong to Islam, and not talking about Islam as a religion. Well. Either that or you are wrong. Edited July 27, 2016 by Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 19 minutes ago, Peace said: I do not even know if the quote is true, by the way. .........Good comment! I could not find the quote either on the more reputable sites. I did however find the quote on http://www.novusordowatch.org/pope-saint-john-paul-ii.htm *** the site said the quote could be found on the Vatican website. I couldn't find it there because the link they give links only to The Holy See - a website which I find confusing - someone else might be able to find the quote there. ____________________________ *** About Norvus Ordo Watch site: HERE The primary mission and purpose of Novus Ordo Watch is to educate. We wish to compare and contrast the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith with the new religion (“Novus Ordo” — see below) instituted after the supposed election of Cardinal Angelo Roncalli as "Pope" John XXIII in 1958 and his disastrous Second Vatican Council (aka "Vatican II" - 1962-65). We are confident that our web site provides sufficient documentation, esp. at our continually-updated Novus Ordo Wire blog, to prove that since the death of the last known Pope, Pius XII (1939-58), the apparent Catholic establishment in the Vatican has been run by anti-Catholic infiltrators who have done everything in their power to destroy the Catholic Faith and cause scandal and impiety among the faithful, all under the guise of a "Great Renewal" of the Faith and ad nauseam references to a supposed "New Springtime" of Catholicism. The truth, however, is quite the opposite. This web site is dedicated to pointing out that truth. 4 hours ago, Josh said: Josh, could you give the actual source you have used for the above quote? My bad, I see that @KnightofChrist gave a source for the quotation linking to the Vatican website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 5 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said: Josh, could you give the actual source you have used for the above quote? I gave the original source earlier, it comes from a speech during a visit by Pope John Paul II to Wadi Al-Kharrar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) Thank you KoC. I did eventually wake up that you had given a sound source for the quote. I missed that post initially. Seems to me in the words "may God protect Islam" common sense tells me that God would not protect evil and certainly there is much good in some versions of Islam to be protected and upheld. I am sure Pope John Paul II knew this too. It is not Islam that is the evil, it is Isis who claim Islam falsely. We have different versions of Christianity too admittedly none of them that I know of are violent in our day anyway, except maybe the KKK who apparently do claim some sort of Christian beliefs and not Christian at all. I have heard too but only on the grapevine (word of mouth) as it were that neo-Nazism claims too some sort of Christian beliefs and not Christian at all. Edited July 27, 2016 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 32 minutes ago, Peace said: Thank you for the clarification. Now the only thing you need to do is demonstrate that praying for religion X is evil. When did something that is false, corrupt, or a lie become good? 32 minutes ago, Peace said: Yes. For the reason that cake X gives the person a better chance of survival than cake Y. Of course, cake Z (0% Sodium fluoride) would be more praiseworthy than both. The only moral and sane suggestion would be the cake without poison. Suggesting the other two for whatever reason would be immoral. 32 minutes ago, Peace said: This strikes me as kind of a "all or none" mentality. You can praise Islam for being a monotheistic religion, can you not? You can praise Islam for being recognizing the God of Abraham, can you not? Why? There are parts to them that are honorable, are there not? Are we to only to honor things that are perfect? Monotheism is true, so Monotheism can be praised, that the true God is the God of Abraham is true so that can be praised. But Islam is truth mixed with lies, it rejects the God of Israel for example. We cannot adopt a sort of dualism, believing we can praise something that is both true and false, good and evil. The Devil believes in monotheism, the devil believes God is the God of Abraham. The devil holds elements of truth, but should we praise the devil because he holds to elements of truth? No. But using your position for praising false religions, we can also praise the devil. Because the devil has elements of truth. 32 minutes ago, Peace said: They might all endanger souls in comparison to the Catholic faith, but again, we are not dealing with an either/or situation here. Let's say I have a friend from an Asian or Middle Eastern country who has never heard the gospel. Can I pray "God I hope that my friend will come to enter the Catholic Church, but if that does not happen, I hope that my friend may come to know you through another Christian community of faith?" Do you deny that God works through non-Catholic communities of faith? They might endanger souls but, they might endanger souls but... I don't see how you can say that yet continue on with your position or questions. Again, this is just like praying "Lord please guide my friend to eat the cake without poison, but if he will not eat that cake have him eat the cake that will make him violently ill or kill him dead so he will not go hungry." 32 minutes ago, Peace said: According to who? How do you know what God uses and what God does not use? How do you know that it was not God's will that I became a protestant on my way to becoming Catholic? Do you have some unique access to the divine will that I am not aware of? Amos 5:21-24 gives a clear picture of how God feels about false worship of Him. Psalm 96:5 gives us a clear picture of how God feels about worship of false gods. 32 minutes ago, Peace said: So then is it safe to assume that you believe that our Jewish brothers and sisters worship a devil? No. As I stated before false religions are of two kinds, worship of false gods, or the false worship of the true God. Judaism rejects the true nature of God, due to it's rejection of Christ as God. So they give false worship to the one true God. The only Church that gives God true worship is the Catholic Church. 32 minutes ago, Peace said: Well. Either that or you are wrong. I am not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) @Peace I don't see the comparison in Islam and Protestant Churches. Protestants accept Christ as God. Islam doesn't. That is the spirit of the Antichrist is it not? 1 John 2:22 ► Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son. Edited July 27, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 MATTHEW CH13 (Vatican Translation) "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds 10 all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?' He answered, 'An enemy has done this.' His slaves said to him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' He replied, 'No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; 11 then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, "First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn."'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) Knight, I will try to get back to you later when I have time. Best, Peace Edited July 27, 2016 by Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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