Priest's throat slit as hostage-takers storm French church

[Gabriela]

I think the Muslim organization did a very honorable thing encouraging Muslims to go to Mass this Sunday. I also think what PhuturePriest says makes a great deal of sense. It's not Muslims that Catholic Mass-goers would be afraid of, but Islamist terrorists using Muslims to slip in unnoticed.

It may lead to more fear. Though, hopefully, not to more violence.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Gabriela

[NadaTeTurbe]

17 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

From what you wrote before, it sounded like the organization itself had come up with the idea, not the parish, so it was my fault for not looking at that closely enough. I was also picking up on fears you yourself had expressed ("I don't want to live in this country anymore.") as potential indicators that people might be afraid in such a situation. Obviously, I am very far removed from it and cannot guess it accurately. I can only come at this from the perspective of what would most likely happen in the area of the world I live in, which would unfortunately be a lot of social backlash towards Muslims (Heck, they get it simply from coming into this country, sadly.) I'm glad to hear this has not caused a lot of fear in everyone and I'm sorry if I came across too harshly. I wasn't in a very good mood yesterday and I spoke too rashly without carefully thinking over the issue.

I was tired too, so it makes two of us who spoke too rashly. 
I don't want to live in this country anymore not only because of the attacks, but also because of the politics that was have. At least we don't have Trump and Hillary, but our government doesn't know what to do, their opponents just want more voices. 
Yes, people are afraid, but you can't live here if you're afraid of muslims. And muslims are afraid, because if you're not a member of ISIS, you're one of their ennemies. Mohammed Merah who killed jewish children in 2012 began by killing muslims soldiers. I think people are afraid because the answers that they received from politics are useless, aimed at having more voices, or out of touch with reality. 

[Benedictus]

14 hours ago, Gabriela said:

I think the Muslim organization did a very honorable thing encouraging Muslims to go to Mass this Sunday. I also think what PhuturePriest says makes a great deal of sense. It's not Muslims that Catholic Mass-goers would be afraid of, but Islamist terrorists using Muslims to slip in unnoticed.

It may lead to more fear. Though, hopefully, not to more violence.

Possibly. But they can enter at anytime, regardless. It's not like you can easily tell who's a terrorist in most situations. These attackers choose not to commit their crimes during the peak of Sunday Mass. They did it during the week when they knew less people would be there to stop them. They were opportunistic cowards who killed an elderly priest for the media attention so that it would accelerate their cause of spreading fear and hate.

I do think Churches need to increase security in the same way Synagogues have had to do for many decades. Many people will know many Synagogues have good security procedures and you won't just breeze in. Synagogues have been fairly good at blocking disruptions and attacks for this reason. Catholic Churches pose different challenges but it seems something pertinent to think about more and more. 

 

[Gabriela]

I was an Orthodox Jew in Germany so I know all about synagogue access, as well as the theological and spiritual assumptions that communities make when considering access to their places of worship. It would be patently unchristian to guard churches in the way that Jews guard synagogues. It's just not the same religion, and it doesn't allow for the same kinds of security measures.

Most Catholics feel terrible that they have to lock their churches at night. To guard them in the way that Jews guard their synagogues, screening people who want to come in, would be utterly unthinkable to us.

[NadaTeTurbe]

It would be impossible in France to protect church like synagogue : there's more than 50 000 churches. But we can do better : only 128 of them have a protection ! 

My muslim friend liked mass, he thought it was great that you could understand what was going on. I wanted to give him a Bible or a gospel but I didn't have one, so I gave him the Imitation of Jesus Christ  

[Guest]

"And it is here that the language of sacrifice is especially tricky. I have no time for the idea that Jesus is sacrificed on the cross to appease an angry God. If that’s true, then God becomes the enemy of humankind and I am against him. No, Jesus absorbs the violence that comes from us, not from God. He receives our blows, our punishments, our disdain. And, despite his innocence – or, rather, precisely because of it – he refuses to answer back in kind. No more an eye for an eye.

 

In other words, the sacrifice of the cross is the non-violent absorption of human violence. The offer of love in return for hate, even to the point of death. This is the horrendous price that peace is sometimes asked to pay. This is what makes the Eucharistic sacrifice life-giving and not some historical death cult. And this is the sacrifice that Father Jacques was celebrating as he died. He died as a priest, doing what priests do. May he rest in peace and rise in glory."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2016/jul/28/father-jacques-hamel-died-as-a-priest-doing-what-priests-do?CMP=share_btn_fb

[PhuturePriest]

Good news: I was right in that Muslims came in droves: http://aleteia.org/blogs/deacon-greg-kandra/muslims-attend-catholic-mass-in-france-as-show-of-solidarity/?ru=31274c1dd0b3e3c08686c0b863611051

Glad everything went well. I'm sure all those who attended were very touched.

[Benedictus]

8 hours ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

It would be impossible in France to protect church like synagogue : there's more than 50 000 churches. But we can do better : only 128 of them have a protection ! 

My muslim friend liked mass, he thought it was great that you could understand what was going on. I wanted to give him a Bible or a gospel but I didn't have one, so I gave him the Imitation of Jesus Christ  

I agree. Policy and protocols are weak. It's something that needs attention and I suspect will be hopefully discussed between civil and Church authorities. This is a new challenge and people should feel the Church is taking reasonable steps to ensure there's a degree of safeguarding in place and an emergency plan that can be put into action locally. The Church has a degree of responsibility for those on its property.

19 hours ago, Gabriela said:

I was an Orthodox Jew in Germany so I know all about synagogue access, as well as the theological and spiritual assumptions that communities make when considering access to their places of worship. It would be patently unchristian to guard churches in the way that Jews guard synagogues. It's just not the same religion, and it doesn't allow for the same kinds of security measures.

Most Catholics feel terrible that they have to lock their churches at night. To guard them in the way that Jews guard their synagogues, screening people who want to come in, would be utterly unthinkable to us.

There would be a lot to unpack here. I accept elements of what you're saying, although I've seen the practices employed at liberal and reform congregations too. It's driven by pragmatic need and not anything else, especially not theology. They manage this with fairly big communities too. They don't turn people away and always try to be welcoming. It's not a one size fits all approach but it's very considered and professional. I know less about Orthodox communities, minus a few Modern Orthodox congregations, but it's not uncommon to hear criticisms, even from Orthodox adherents, regarding exclusive and restrictive behaviour practised by some.

The issue is unthinkable for Catholics, especially ones living safe environments, because they've never had to really think about it. Things change and if risks increase I doubt they'll keep shrugging it off. Churches in persecuted countries do think about security and don't accept that somehow they have to ignore it to be considered Christian.  

 

 

[NadaTeTurbe]

I was so moved by the testimony of the sisters in the newspaper "La Vie", i wanted to translate most of it for Phatmass. There's mistakes I'm sure, and some useless things, I did not translate it, but the main accoung is here. 

http://www.lavie.fr/actualite/france/face-a-face-avec-les-terroristes-de-saint-etienne-du-rouvray-le-temoignage-des-religieuses-29-07-2016-75263_4.php

Troubled youngs people who squat stars and promise to watch over their cars. Teachers in professional high school, nurses, these three sisters of Saint Vincent de Paul have already seen this kind of youngs during their missions in Normandy, Brittany, North and Paris. To be in the heart of difficult neighbourhoods and close to the marginalized is the DNA of their order since more than 150 years. But terrorists ? These 3 womens with white hairs never thought they could meet some of them. And not in St Etienne du Rouvray, a communist suburbia next to Rouen, where they live with another sister. Friendship between muslims and catholics is lived during every day life : the parish Sainte Thérèse gave some ground to the next door mosque. On feast days, the paris welcome muslims on its ground, who give them pastries.

(…)

We never felt hate in our discussion with the sisters. Sitting in their dinning room, these three “sisters courage” don’t leave each other, surronded by white flowers given by friends. On the wall, a crucifix. On the table, a call to national prayer and a picture of father Hamel with a white alb. Sisters Danielle Delafosse, who have a strong character, is shaked : “I would like to be able to place this image with the image that I have of Jacques in church.”

At 9 :30 am, this Tuesday, father Jacques Hamel is saying mass with three religious and a couple of elderly : « The portuguese moms were on holidays ! ». During the mass, a man comes : “with his blue shirt, I thought he was a student. He wanted to know when the church was open. I told him to come again in 10 minutes, after the mass” says Sister Huguette, calmly.

The young man comes back later, but with a friend and dressed in black. “They were dressed like terrorist on TV. One of them had a black cap on its head, and a big beard. I understood immediately.” Remembers sister Hélène, the trio’s nurse. « They were very angry. They pronounced a kind of slogan in arab, and in french, they reproached us for the fact that “us christian, we don’t support arabs”

Then, the horror. The agressors throw everything that is on the altar to put their bags on it, and ask the prist to kneel. They put a camera in the hand of Mr C. “Jacques screamed : “Stop, what are you doing ?” At this moment, one of them gave the frist blow to his throat. I left” remembers Danielle, who still can’t explain her survival reflex. Outside, she calls herself. Before being put in safety, she stopped a blue car, and asked the man inside to call the police.

                                                                                                                                

Inside the church, the tragedy is still going on. The two murderers are following their plan. They put their knife another time in the throat of father Jacques, who died soon after. After wounding Mr C., they check if he did not move the camera, that the macabre scene have been well recorded. “I saw on the screen the white alb of Jacques with a red stain.” Says Huguette, who was behing the “cameraman”. While father Jacques and mr C. are lying down on the ground, the “leader” tell the three women that he is keeping them as hostage. “They hold us by the shoulders. One of them had a gun, but I soon thought it was a fake, and I was true. The one who hold me had blood on its hand and a knife that he sharpened against I don’t know what” says Hélène, traumatized to the point that she can’t see a knife without shivering.

 

The change in attitude of the two terrorist is obvious. They are no longer angry or aggressive. “The second one smiled to me. Not a triumphant smile, but a sweet smile, the smile of someone happy”, says Huguette, still surprised two days after the tragedy. Sister Hélène, 83 ans, and Mme C., more than 80 years old, ask to sit down. A killer says “yes”. Between the torturer and the captives women, begins a surrealist dialogue with pseudo-theological accents.

Did the killers try to convert the sisters to Islam ? We could believe it. They ask sister Hélène if she know the Qu’ran. “Yes, I respect it like I respect the Bible, I already read some sura. And what striked me, it’s the part about peace.” Touched, the man answers : “We want peace ! When you will be on TV, you will say to your rulers that there will be attacks as long as there is bombing in Syria.” Under threats, Hélène says yes. After her liberation, she will say it to François Hollande. “Are you afraid to die ?” ask the killer with cruelty, or maybe curiosity. “No” answers the sister. “Why ?” “I believe in God and I know that I’ll be happy”

Hélène doesn’t want to weaken, so she prays the Virgin Mary, and think about Christian de Chergé, the prior of the monastery of Tibhirine. “I always answered calmly, never more than necessary. Never against my thought, but not too much.” With sister Huguette, the conversation is about Jesus and the debate between muslims and christians. “esus can’t be man and God? You’re wrong” says the 19 years old terrorist. “Maybe, and so what ?” answers the sister. “I did not want to provoke him, and I did not want to renounce to my convictions. Thinking that I was going to die, internally, I offered my life to God.”

 

While the police is coming, the two murderers begins to hit the bench, to push the candles around the tabernacle, shouting “Allah Akbar !” “They were waiting for the police.” Before the police enters the church, they try to leave with the three women as human shield. “But they were not really behind us. They wanted to die. I moved my bag, there was a noise. The same one that smiled to me said : “Don’t move. Stay here.” The police who entered by the sacristy door shoots. The terrorist dies. Mr and Mme C, and the two sisters leave free but traumatized.

Two days after the tragedy, they see reflections of this nightmare, and memories of Jacques, who often ate at their home and gave to them “La Vie”. “He was a welcoming man, who had a strong character, and liked music and beautiful eucharistic celebrations. He wanted order on the altar, and the carpet had to be at the perfect place.” Danielle – who did not have the time to think to celebrate her jubilee – sigh “It going to be difficult, and we will go back to church and work in his presbitery.” She is angry “inside” “It’s us, but it’s also others who were targets. We can’t accept this violence. They are not real muslims.” “I don’t know if they had awareness of their acts. We must not try to understand.” Says sister Hélène. The tragedy ? “It will pass.” She hopes. With a soft voice, sister Huguette remind us that “2016 is the year of mercy.”

[LittleWaySoul]

Thank you for sharing that, @NadaTeTurbe.

[little2add]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKAE50xwjzE

    Normandy REFUSES To Give Muslim Burial To Priest Killers! POPE FRANCIS AGREES TO BURY THE TWO MUSLIMS IN THE VATICAN CEMETERY NEXT TO THE HOBO! 

 

may they rest in peace

Edited August 1, 2016 by little2add

[Gabriela]

On 7/31/2016 at 3:34 PM, Benedictus said:

I agree. Policy and protocols are weak. It's something that needs attention and I suspect will be hopefully discussed between civil and Church authorities. This is a new challenge and people should feel the Church is taking reasonable steps to ensure there's a degree of safeguarding in place and an emergency plan that can be put into action locally. The Church has a degree of responsibility for those on its property.

There would be a lot to unpack here. I accept elements of what you're saying, although I've seen the practices employed at liberal and reform congregations too. It's driven by pragmatic need and not anything else, especially not theology. They manage this with fairly big communities too. They don't turn people away and always try to be welcoming. It's not a one size fits all approach but it's very considered and professional. I know less about Orthodox communities, minus a few Modern Orthodox congregations, but it's not uncommon to hear criticisms, even from Orthodox adherents, regarding exclusive and restrictive behaviour practised by some.

The issue is unthinkable for Catholics, especially ones living safe environments, because they've never had to really think about it. Things change and if risks increase I doubt they'll keep shrugging it off. Churches in persecuted countries do think about security and don't accept that somehow they have to ignore it to be considered Christian.  

I don't think my meaning was clear. Jewish communities—be they Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, or whatever—do not see any contradiction between their theology and providing security for their communities that effectively deters some people from entering and discourages many others. Jews do not feel required to evangelize the world, nor to welcome all into their places of worship. They do feel required to protect their own. That's a much more important value to them than openness and hospitality. I was nearly kept out of a synagogue in Stuttgart because I didn't phrase my request to enter in an acceptable way. People are kept out of synagogues all the time. In some places, if you're not Jewish, or even if you are Jewish but you don't explicitly state that fact without being asked, you're not getting in.

Christians are the opposite. We are called to sacrifice our lives for the sake of sharing the Gospel, if that should be necessary. So the Church's "responsibility for those on its property", as I see it, means ensuring the roof doesn't collapse on us, or the floor give way beneath us. She has zero responsibility to ensure that terrorists don't sneak in together with the thousands of other curious/wandering/wondering lost souls. On the contrary, WE have a responsibility to welcome all in, and die for that cause if we must.

I would like to hear what Christians in persecuted countries do to keep their congregations safe. So far as I'm aware, if Christians are widely persecuted in a place, they're not worshipping openly and in public anyway. They're sneaking down to the seaside cliffs at dusk to celebrate an "Irish Mass" and race home. They're building "priest holes" into the back rooms in their houses. Or they're not celebrating Mass at all, just to stay alive.

I'm cool with passing people through metal detectors or patting them down. But I'm not cool with keeping people out, or even doing things that might deter any curious person of goodwill from knocking on the door.

On 7/31/2016 at 11:58 AM, PhuturePriest said:

Good news: I was right in that Muslims came in droves: http://aleteia.org/blogs/deacon-greg-kandra/muslims-attend-catholic-mass-in-france-as-show-of-solidarity/?ru=31274c1dd0b3e3c08686c0b863611051

Glad everything went well. I'm sure all those who attended were very touched.

Yup. And judging by the videos Catholics weren't terrified.  

[Guest]

"For the first time during a mass in Italy a  verse of the Koran was sung from the altar. It happened in the Church of Santa Maria in Trastevere during the ceremony in memory of the priest of Rouen killed by terrorists of Isis. During the ceremony, while Catholics recited the creed, a delegate of the mosque of al-Azhar University in Cairo softly repeated an Islamic prayer asking for peace."

http://www.lastampa.it/2016/07/31/multimedia/italia/cronache/santa-maria-in-trastevere-cantato-per-la-prima-volta-versetto-del-corano-1HfVWSbmDRozLVmOsmmAtN/pagina.html

[LittleWaySoul]

5 hours ago, Josh said:

"For the first time during a mass in Italy a  verse of the Koran was sung from the altar. It happened in the Church of Santa Maria in Trastevere during the ceremony in memory of the priest of Rouen killed by terrorists of Isis. During the ceremony, while Catholics recited the creed, a delegate of the mosque of al-Azhar University in Cairo softly repeated an Islamic prayer asking for peace."

http://www.lastampa.it/2016/07/31/multimedia/italia/cronache/santa-maria-in-trastevere-cantato-per-la-prima-volta-versetto-del-corano-1HfVWSbmDRozLVmOsmmAtN/pagina.html

That sounds questionable to me.... Smacks of synchretism. 

[Anomaly]

  At least the religious fanatics aren't killing each other and others around them about made up fiction and meaningless gibberish while in the same room.

Kudos on civil behavior and coexistence for twenty minutes.  The rest of us can only hope this doesn't fuel further religious hatred, butt hurt, and vileness.