Priest's throat slit as hostage-takers storm French church

[NadaTeTurbe]

This is a short litany of the saints of France that we used to pray in our Youth Group : 

Lord, have mercy 
Our Lady of the Assumption, to wich we are consecrated, pray for France, 
Our Lady of Laus, pray for France
Our Lady of Lourdes, pray for France
Our Lady of La Salette, pray for France
Our Lady of Pontmain, pray for France 
Our Lady of the MIraculous Medal
Saint Michael, our protector, pray for France 
Saint Joan of Arc, pray for France, 
Saint Therese of Lisieux, pray for France 
Saint Pétronille, pray for France 
Three saint bishop of France, Saint Rémi, Saint Denis, and Saint Martin, pray for France 
Saints kings and queen of France, Saint Louis, Saint Clothilde, pray for France 
Apostles of the Great Century, Saint Francis de Sales, Saint Vincent de Paul, Saint Jean-Eudes, pray for France 
Saints foundress of religious congregation, Saint Madeleine-Sophie Barat, Saint Emilie de Rodat, Saint Emilie de Vialar, pray for France, 
Martyrs of the Revolution, Saint Noël Pinot, Carmélites de Compiègne, hundreds of priest and sisters who died at the guillotine, pray for us 
Apostles of the XXth century, Blessed Charles de Foucault, Marthe Robin, Pierre Goursat, Jean-Marie Lustiger, pray for France,
Saints patron of our regions : St Anne for Bretagne, Saint Odile for Alsace, Saint Nicolas for Lorraine, Saint Geneviève for Paris, Saint Marie-Madeleine for Provence, Saint Sernin for Toulouse, all of you, pray for France,
All of you, Saints of France, pray for our country,
Lord, forgive our sins, and remember the Elder Daughter of your Church. 

Amen 

(Saint Pétronille : Saint Patron of France according to an old tradition. Our Lady of Laus : oldest apparition of our Lady in France, to Benoîte Roncuel, a shepherdess, the Great Century : it's how we call the XVIIème century, who gave us many saints. Sophie Barat founded the Religious Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Emilie de Rodat the Sisters of the Holy Family of VIllefranche de Rouergue, Emilie de Vialar the Sisters of Saint Joseph of the Apparition. Noël Pinot, the sixteen carmelites of Compiègne where killed because they were catholic. Marthe Robin was a mystic. Pierre Goursat founded the Emmanuel Community, a very healthy charismatic movement who gave a new life to the Devotion to the Sacred Heart and Eucharistic Adoration, Jean-Marie LUstiger was Archbishop of Paris and a convert from judaism.) 
 

 
 

[cappie]

From the tributes, a picture emerges of a warm and conscientious character, perhaps rather shy – “He was very discreet and didn’t like to draw attention to himself”, according to one local – and someone dedicated to his ministry. Fr Hamel was given the chance to retire at the usual age of 75, but decided that (partly because of the priest shortage) he ought to carry on.

Fr Hamel earned the respect of his fellow-priests. Fr Aimé-Rémi Mputu Amba, who had lunch with him every week, told Le Figaro that Fr Hamel was “a ray of sunshine” whenever he came into the room.

When Fr Amba teased him about retirement, Fr Hamel replied: “Have you seen a retired priest? I will work until my last breath.”

A diocesan official told AP that Fr Hamel “was always ready to help” and that “his desire was to spread a message for which he consecrated his life.”

[Ice_nine]

is the world getting crazier/more violent? Or is that just the nature of modern media that makes it appear that way? Have we reached a level of security and prosperity such that these acts of violence, always a part of human history, now seem more garish by contrast?

Either way, what a tragedy.

[cappie]

A plaque at Auschwitz-Birkenau reads: “For ever let this place be a cry of despair and a warning to humanity.” The acts of terror that have taken place both in the West and the East over the last few years serve to show how little humanity has learnt from the horrors of the twentieth century.

Edited July 27, 2016 by cappie

[Nihil Obstat]

5 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

is the world getting crazier/more violent? Or is that just the nature of modern media that makes it appear that way? Have we reached a level of security and prosperity such that these acts of violence, always a part of human history, now seem more garish by contrast?

Either way, what a tragedy.

It seems that lately the violence has been spilling over into the developed world much more than in recent memory.

[LittleWaySoul]

4 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

It seems that lately the violence has been spilling over into the developed world much more than in recent memory.

That's a good way of putting it.

[little2add]

It seems that lately the moral decay has been Flourishing in the developed world much more than in recent memory too.

[Nihil Obstat]

8 minutes ago, little2add said:

It seems that lately the moral decay has been Flourishing in the developed world much more than in recent memory too.

I think it has been on an accelerating decline since the Enlightenment. Would not be much surprised if that is part of your recent memory though.

[NadaTeTurbe]

the French organization who lead all of the muslims organizations called for muslims to go to mass sunday, by "compassion and solidarity" for catholics, and also because Father Jacques Hamel was involved in inter-religious dialogue. I hope this is followed widely, and I'll pray it will touch them. One of my friend told me he'll be here. 

[PhuturePriest]

That's a very nice and touching gesture, but the reality of possibly dozens of Muslims attending a parish at once would realistically make it easier for a terrorist to slip in unnoticed. More realistically, I fear such a thing would put many parishioners on edge and they would leave Mass out of caution, particularly if they have small children. It would certainly cross my mind to do so were I at Mass with my sister and nephews.

I'm not trying to berate or denigrate the idea, mind you. I'm simply thinking out loud the pluses and benefits of the situation. It would be a more powerful gesture if Catholics themselves had done it, as now it feels like Muslims are foisting themselves upon parishes and making people more afraid of terrorist attacks. If all goes well (as I hope and expect it to,) it will hopefully do the opposite, of course.

Edited July 28, 2016 by PhuturePriest

[Ice_nine]

10 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

That's a very nice and touching gesture, but the reality of possibly dozens of Muslims attending a parish at once would realistically make it easier for a terrorist to slip in unnoticed. More realistically, I fear such a thing would put many parishioners on edge and they would leave Mass out of caution, particularly if they have small children. It would certainly cross my mind to do so were I at Mass with my sister and nephews.

I'm not trying to berate or denigrate the idea, mind you. I'm simply thinking out loud the pluses and benefits of the situation. It would be a more powerful gesture if Catholics themselves had done it, as now it feels like Muslims are foisting themselves upon parishes and making people more afraid of terrorist attacks. If all goes well (as I hope and expect it to,) it will hopefully do the opposite, of course.

I think it may benefit you to take a break from your contrarianism streak. Islam is a religion and Muslims come in many stripes, some fairly westernized in dress, some very traditional. Some Christians may be Middle Eastern or "look" Arab/Muslim (again the two are not synonymous). Also a terrorist is probably good at "slipping in unnoticed" without a crowd of "Muslim-looking" people. That's usually their M.O. Unless you are to be suspect of any brown guy who might be Muslim or any woman with a head-covering.

It's a good thing to have Muslims attend Holy Mass. I don't expect sweeping conversions but maybe a few souls will be touched. Who knows?

[PhuturePriest]

10 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

I think it may benefit you to take a break from your contrarianism streak. Islam is a religion and Muslims come in many stripes, some fairly westernized in dress, some very traditional. Some Christians may be Middle Eastern or "look" Arab/Muslim (again the two are not synonymous). Also a terrorist is probably good at "slipping in unnoticed" without a crowd of "Muslim-looking" people. That's usually their M.O. Unless you are to be suspect of any brown guy who might be Muslim or any woman with a head-covering.

It's a good thing to have Muslims attend Holy Mass. I don't expect sweeping conversions but maybe a few souls will be touched. Who knows?

I'm not being contrary for the sake of being contrary. I'm saying it's potentially imprudent for tons of Muslims to invite themselves to Mass even though many Catholics in France are scared.

In my opinion, it would have been a much better idea for this organization to host an event for Catholics and Muslims to stand in solidarity. This way it's completely optional and those who go are doing so on their own accord and having weighed the risks for them and their family. Catholics are *required* to go to Mass, and the French Catholics who do go are being forced into a situation they may not feel is safe.

We can't fault people for fearing the safety of their families at Mass in this situation, especially considering this week two men slit the throat of a priest and held parishioners hostage.

[PhuturePriest]

For the record, I'm not saying Muslims should be disallowed from Mass. In fact, anyone who knows me knows I love the Middle East. I find its history and culture to be endlessly fascinating, and I want to visit Arabia and Egypt someday. I always get really excited whenever I speak to Muslims regardless of their ethnic heritage, and if a parish near me invited Muslims to attend in the name of dialogue and better relations, I would go out of my way to attend.

Then again, my parish priest's throat wasn't slit in front of me and I wasn't held hostage several days ago. If that did happen to me, I would potentially feel very unsafe and scared if the next time I were at Mass lots of Muslims came. I'm not coming at this from a point of prejudice or distrust, but concern for the people this happened to. I think it was imprudent for this organization to invite themselves to a Mass that might include the victims of this crime, who may choose not to go because of that fear. An independent event held by the organization would have been in better taste.

[NadaTeTurbe]

If a french catholic is afraid of a muslim at mass, he is stupid. It's not the US here where there is 2% of muslims I read, you know, we live with them. They're 10% of the population. If you're afraid of a muslim at mass, it means you're afraid of a muslim in the bus, in the streets, etc... In wich case, you just have to never leave your house. Because if you're afraid of a muslims in a place where there was a terrorist attack, it means that : 
you're afraid of muslims on the streets
you're afraid of muslims in a stadium (so you can't watch football since the team is made of a lot of muslims) 
you're afraid of muslims in a bar
French are not as coward as americans believe... 

And this idea comes from... the parish of Saint Etienne du Rouvray ! i.e the people who were attacked. The idea was that the parishioner of Saint Etienne du Rouvray will go to prayers on friday at the mosquée, and then the muslims will go to mass sunday, because Father Jacques was involved in inter-religious dialogue. 

btw, the sisters who witnessed the execution of Father Jacques, a few hours after, she was back in her home in a muslims neighbourhood, and she wasn't afraid, and she had reasons to be ! 

Also = ton of muslims ? With a little luck, one or two will come. They don't obey blindly to the CFCM, it's an institution created less than 10 years ago. 

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/portfolio/2016/07/29/en-images-l-hommage-au-pretre-jacques-hamel-assassine_4976035_3224.html 

 

[PhuturePriest]

8 hours ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

If a french catholic is afraid of a muslim at mass, he is stupid. It's not the US here where there is 2% of muslims I read, you know, we live with them. They're 10% of the population. If you're afraid of a muslim at mass, it means you're afraid of a muslim in the bus, in the streets, etc... In wich case, you just have to never leave your house. Because if you're afraid of a muslims in a place where there was a terrorist attack, it means that : 
you're afraid of muslims on the streets
you're afraid of muslims in a stadium (so you can't watch football since the team is made of a lot of muslims) 
you're afraid of muslims in a bar
French are not as coward as americans believe... 

And this idea comes from... the parish of Saint Etienne du Rouvray ! i.e the people who were attacked. The idea was that the parishioner of Saint Etienne du Rouvray will go to prayers on friday at the mosquée, and then the muslims will go to mass sunday, because Father Jacques was involved in inter-religious dialogue. 

btw, the sisters who witnessed the execution of Father Jacques, a few hours after, she was back in her home in a muslims neighbourhood, and she wasn't afraid, and she had reasons to be ! 

Also = ton of muslims ? With a little luck, one or two will come. They don't obey blindly to the CFCM, it's an institution created less than 10 years ago. 

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/portfolio/2016/07/29/en-images-l-hommage-au-pretre-jacques-hamel-assassine_4976035_3224.html 

 

From what you wrote before, it sounded like the organization itself had come up with the idea, not the parish, so it was my fault for not looking at that closely enough. I was also picking up on fears you yourself had expressed ("I don't want to live in this country anymore.") as potential indicators that people might be afraid in such a situation. Obviously, I am very far removed from it and cannot guess it accurately. I can only come at this from the perspective of what would most likely happen in the area of the world I live in, which would unfortunately be a lot of social backlash towards Muslims (Heck, they get it simply from coming into this country, sadly.) I'm glad to hear this has not caused a lot of fear in everyone and I'm sorry if I came across too harshly. I wasn't in a very good mood yesterday and I spoke too rashly without carefully thinking over the issue.

Edited July 29, 2016 by PhuturePriest