Da Vinci Code, Dead Sea Scrolls,

[curtins]

ok sorry i did this 2x i forgot to add what this is all about
ok my freind is readin the da vinci code and i think shes beleiving it to be more like scripture than a fictional novel. I need some ways to respond to wat she is saying- heres the convo, im curtins shes blonde. these are not our real sn's
thanks alot









Blonde-omg u REEEEEEEEALLY have to read the da vinci code
Blonde: im so serious
Blonde- u HAVE to
CuRtIns-ill see
CuRtIns-the author has an agenda with the Catholic church
Blonde-but OM-.. gosh.. it makes me SOOOOO bad
Blonde-mad*
Blonde-yes i kno he does.. nd it makes me sooo mad at the church
CuRtIns-but u have to remember that its a fictional novel
Blonde-nd everything u have to read it
Blonde-thats true but many things r true in it
CuRtIns-THE BOOK IS NOT SCRIPTURE
CuRtIns-NO
Blonde-in the begining of the book
CuRtIns-its a fictional novel written by a guy who dislikes the church
Blonde-it says although this book is fictional many of the .. wait wat do they call it
CuRtIns-and anyone who takes it to be the truth of Jesus Christ is very nieave
CuRtIns-im not sayin thats u
CuRtIns-but alot of ppl
CuRtIns-believe it
CuRtIns-which is sad
CuRtIns-but it sounds like a good story
Blonde-"All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituaals in this novel are accurate."
Blonde-which is BASICALLY saying
Blonde-thats the documents found that were taken out of the bible
Blonde-are true (which i also saw on the history channel)
CuRtIns-ok
CuRtIns-and
Blonde-such as....The Dead Sea Scrolls which depict Jesus Christ's life as a mortal while married to Mary Magdelen
CuRtIns-i dont know much about the dead sea scrolls
CuRtIns-but they are not the bible
Blonde-yeah bc the catholic church has kept them hidden
CuRtIns-the info can be taken from the dead sea scrolls
Blonde-bc it would destroy the entire religion
CuRtIns-but that doesnt mean that the scrolls itself are accurate
Blonde-no they r i was watching it on the history channel with my dad
Blonde-oh
Blonde-oooh
Blonde-yes but
Blonde-i was watching this show
Blonde-nd they wer saying how wen christianity was formed *which was like a long time after jesus's death.. i dont remember the exact amount of years* many things were changed to build a better religion on
Blonde-such as Jesus being the Son of God instead of a mortal who preached to millions
Blonde-and im not saying Jesus ISNT the Son of God
Blonde-im just saying that people believe thats a possibility
Blonde-b/c
Blonde-wait
Blonde-wait
CuRtIns-thats a herrasiy
Blonde-wait
Blonde-WAIT
CuRtIns-i learned about that in religion that ppl believed Jesus wasnt truly divine
Blonde-the Bible was a document written by men.. not God.. the Bible is basically something people wrote down after everything happened and who is to say that alot of it wasnt changed in some way?
Blonde-MAN wrote the Bible
Blonde-NOT God
CuRtIns-man was inspired
Blonde-and please dont get me wrong here
CuRtIns-by God
Blonde-im not going against the church or anything
Blonde-im just trying to say... the Bible was written by man.. and there is no proof it wasnt ever changed
CuRtIns-God CLEARLY STATED MANY TIMES in the old and new testament that Jesus was/is God and was/is the son of God
Blonde-GOD DIDNT STATE IT BC GOD DIDNT WRITE IT
Blonde-DID GOD
Blonde-COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN
Blonde-AND WRITE THE BIBLE?!
Blonde-NO HE DIDNT!
CuRtIns-no
Blonde-MAN WROTE THE BIBLE!
CuRtIns-ok deep breath
Blonde-SO HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THEY NEVER CHANGED IT IN SOME WAY?!
Blonde-you dont kno
Blonde-its caleld faith
CuRtIns-yea it is
Blonde-yes
Blonde-im just trying to say
CuRtIns-scripture and tradition
Blonde-that there is a possibility.. that it was changed
CuRtIns-ill get back to u on that
Blonde-no bc thats a question that cant be answered
Blonde-christianity was formed.. it wasnt here from the begining of time
Blonde-i believe.. im not saying u have to or anything im just giving u my opinion.. that Jesus was married to Mary Magdelene.. nd i think its wrong and corrupt that even tho those documents not be entirely true that they were hidden bc the church was afraid
Blonde-may not*

[Crusader_4]

funny u say that a friend mentioned the same thing to me the other day exact same thing like word for word and i gave it what i like to call "The Cardinal Ratzinger Smackdown!" just let them know its fake give examples mention the gnostics didnt even know Jesus or listen to his apostles it would b as if you were writting about the hockey game last nite that you didnt go to and dont know antyhing about the sport....it ticks me off people are guillable enough to swallow this.

[curtins]

I think sumone has to explain to me sum stuff about the dead sea scrolls

who rote them what they are what they contain etc.

[FaustinaVianney]

The Dead Sea Scrolls are manuscripts of certain books of the Old Testament and a few books that were not in the Old Testament, but some Jewish people found valuable. They were found in some caves in the Midddle East during the 40's or 50's. They are not sure who left them in the cave, not to mention that there are a lot of the manuscripts that were just fragments because of bat dung, time, etc. They are believed to have been left there in around 300 B.C. Some people think that it was the Essenes that hid them when they were being attacked, but of course since it was so long ago nobody actually knows. They big thing that they showed was that there were different interpretations of the Hebrew Bible going around at that time kinda like the RSV, NAB, KJV, NIV, etc.

See, some scholars thought that the Septuagint was not that legit because there were some different words and verses than in the Hebrew Bible. But, the DSS showed that the Sept. can be legit from the Hebrew it was translated from. People were expecting the opposite to happen. In some books the DSS agreed with the Setp and in some the Hebrew, which means there had to be diff translations just like today there are diff translations of the Bible.

I hope this helps somewhat...I had an intro to the DSS class, so I know a little, but there is so much to understand about that time period, etc to eplain everything, but maybe someone else can...

[FaustinaVianney]

There is a book I believe it is called 'Decoding the DaVinci Code' and I believe Amy Welbourn wrote it. That should help with answering questions about it. I have read the DaVinci Code so I don't know how to fight against it, but the
Amy W. book was pretty awesome.


Oh, the DSS that I know of were written BEFORE Jesus' time, so He was not mentioned in them, but might be others scrolls found in the Middle East, but the commonly referred to ones were OT...

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

DaVinci's scholarship is laughable and the Gnostics were hardly Christians.

[curtins]

ok what are gnostics and wat is the Septuagint????

[FaustinaVianney]

The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. Before the Romans took over the Jewish people the Greeks did. So what happened was something called Hellenization (sp?). Which means that the Jewish people started to follow some of the Greek customs, etc instead of their own, for instance started speaking Greek. Just as in America today where the Italian and other immigrants didn't teach the youth the mother tongue, so they could not read the Bible as well, so it was translated into Greek, so that it was in the language in which they spoke. I think all that jibberish is right, but basically the Sept is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible and I believe it is what St Jerome used for his translation.

[crusader1234]

[quote]Hey, I'm not exactly sure what you meant by putting this in the debate phorum, but I hope this helps.

1. Your friend was right in saying that all the descriptions of historical documents, architecture, etc were accurate, however this doesnt mean that the theology behind the religious documents is correct. Just like we don't accept the fact that the Koran is 'the truth' we still aknowledge its place in history... that sort of thing. The parts about art and history and architecture are all very factual and interesting though.

2. God actually did say that Jesus was his son, he sent an Angel to Mary who acted as messenger and said straight out you have been chosen to be the mother of God's son.

3. The Catholic Church did NOT hide the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Essenes, a group of Jewish monastic types feared that the invaders would destroy all the documentation and what not so they recorded it and hid it in a cave where it was recently discovered and used to better translate the Bible.

[quote]Blonde-"All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituaals in this novel are accurate."
Blonde-which is BASICALLY saying
Blonde-thats the documents found that were taken out of the bible
Blonde-are true (which i also saw on the history channel) [/quote]

I watched the History channel documentary(s - there were a few) on this and yeah... your friend has horribly misplaced the context of him saying that descriptions are accurate. He is saying, like I previously said, that the descriptions are true, not that they are 100 percent divine. He is talking about how well he investigated the various Churches, Gnostic Gospels, Locations, Paintings, etc. Even if he was saying that they were all true, I think its important to remember that Dan Brown is a novelist and not exactly somebody to be basing your faith on.

I hope this helps,

Rich [/quote]

(This is from your other post)

If you want I've got more on the Dead Sea Scrolls but I'm too lazy to type the whole story

[MorphRC]

[quote name='curtins' date='Jun 21 2004, 10:06 AM'] ok what are gnostics and wat is the Septuagint???? [/quote]
Gnostics
~~~~~

[b]I INTRODUCTION[/b]

Gnosticism, esoteric religious movement that flourished during the 2nd and 3rd centuries ad and presented a major challenge to orthodox Christianity. Most Gnostic sects professed Christianity, but their beliefs sharply diverged from those of the majority of Christians in the early Church. The term Gnosticism is derived from the Greek word gnosis (“revealed knowledge”). To its adherents, Gnosticism promised a secret knowledge of the divine realm. Sparks or seeds of the Divine Being fell from this transcendent realm into the material universe, which is wholly evil, and were imprisoned in human bodies. Reawakened by knowledge, the divine element in humanity can return to its proper home in the transcendent spiritual realm.

[b]II ORIGINS[/b]

Gnostic texts reveal nothing about the history of the various sects or about the lives of their most prominent teachers. Consequently, the history of the movement must be inferred from the traditions reflected in the texts and from anti-Gnostic writings. The question of whether Gnosticism first developed as a distinct non-Christian doctrine has not been resolved, but pagan Gnostic sects did exist. Gnostic mythology may have been derived from Jewish sectarian speculation centred in Syria and Palestine during the late 1st century ad, which in turn was probably influenced by Persian dualistic religions, especially Zoroastrianism. By the 2nd century, Christian Gnostic teachers had synthesized this mythology with Platonic metaphysical speculation and with certain heretical Christian traditions. The most prominent Christian Gnostics were Valentinus and his disciple Ptolemaeus, who during the 2nd century were influential in the Roman Church. Christian Gnostics, while continuing to participate in the larger Christian community, apparently also gathered in small groups to follow their secret teachings and rituals.

During the 2nd century another strain of Gnosticism emerged in eastern Syria, stressing an ascetic interpretation of Jesus's teachings. Later in the century Gnosticism appeared in Egypt, and the emergence of monasticism there may be linked with the influence of the Syrian ascetic sects.

[b]III MYTHOLOGY[/b]

To explain the origin of the material universe, the Gnostics developed a complicated mythology. From the original unknowable God, a series of lesser divinities was generated by emanation. The last of these, Sophia (“wisdom”), conceived a desire to know the unknowable Supreme Being. Out of this illegitimate desire was produced a deformed, evil god, or demiurge, who created the universe. The divine sparks that dwell in humanity fell into this universe or else were sent there by the supreme God in order to redeem humanity. The Gnostics identified the evil god with the God of the Old Testament, which they interpreted as an account of this god's efforts to keep humanity immersed in ignorance and the material world and to punish their attempts to acquire knowledge. It was in this light that they understood the expulsion of Adam and Eve from Paradise, the flood, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

[b]IV GNOSTICISM AND CHRISTIANITY[/b]

Although most Gnostics considered themselves Christians, some sects assimilated only minor Christian elements into a body of non-Christian Gnostic texts. The Christian Gnostics refused to identify the God of the New Testament, the father of Jesus, with the God of the Old Testament, and they developed an unorthodox interpretation of Jesus's ministry. The Gnostics wrote apocryphal Gospels (such as the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary) to substantiate their claim that the risen Jesus told his disciples the true, Gnostic interpretation of his teachings: Christ, the divine spirit, inhabited the body of the man Jesus and did not die on the cross but ascended to the divine realm from which he had come. The Gnostics thus rejected the atoning suffering and death of Christ and the Resurrection of the body. They also rejected other literal and traditional interpretations of the Gospels.

[color=red][b]Microsoft Encarta 2004 Standard
© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.[/b][/color]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Septuagint, name given the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. The term is derived from the Latin word septuaginta (“seventy”; hence, the customary abbreviation LXX), which refers to the 70 (or 72) translators who were once believed to have been appointed by the Jewish high priest of the time to render the Hebrew Bible into Greek at the behest of the Hellenistic emperor Ptolemy II.

The legend of the 70 translators contains an element of truth, for the Torah (the five books of Moses—Genesis to Deuteronomy) probably had been translated into Greek by the 3rd century bc to serve the needs of Greek-speaking Jews outside Palestine who were no longer able to read their Scriptures in the original Hebrew. The translation of the remaining books of the Hebrew Old Testament, the addition to it of books and parts of books (the Apocrypha), and the final production of the Greek Old Testament as the Bible of the early Christian Church form a very complicated history. Because the Septuagint, rather than the Hebrew text, became the Bible of the early Church, other Jewish translations of the Hebrew Bible into Greek were made by the 3rd century; these are extant only in fragments, and their history is even more obscure than that of the Septuagint.

[b]NOTE:[/b] 'Christian Church' is a PC name for the Catholic Church as to not offend prots and other heretics, and to keep buying power up obviously cause if they offended the heretics, which pertain most of the world, they wouldnt get much turnover.

[color=red][b]Microsoft Encarta 2004 Standard
© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.[/b][/color]

[curtins]

ok she thinks that Jesus and Marry Magdoline MITE have slept together- i told her thats absolutly pathetic and all that is good and right and pure and perfect(Jesus aka God) wouldnt do sumthing that is against the church that he is founding.

and she doesnt like the Church. she says not the religion but the church.

she thinks the church isnt telling the whole truth and that is prejudice cuz women arnt preists and Jesus is made out to look white



oh well

shes ticking me off

[MorphRC]

Can I help at all?

Ask what u need, ill see if i can get some quotes and stuff, so it might get thru..MIGHT

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

These claims of an intimate relationship, even marraige between Mary Magdalene and Jesus are not well thought out.

First, Christ is married to the Church, as seen in the Book of Revelation.

Second, Paul relates the relationship between married couples and the the relationship between Christ and the Church. This furthers the fact that Christ is married to the Church.
[quote]Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. "For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church. In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband.
Letter of St. Paul to the Ephesians 5:21-33[/quote]

More evidence can be found in books written in response to [u]The DaVinci Code[/u].

[MorphRC]

It absolutely makes my brain wonder why they believe this, even though its a fictional book, as I read from one of the authors statements, people believe it to be historical fact.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I guess it's just curiosity that makes people look into this book. While the book is fiction, many of it's claims are actually religious beliefs of today's neo-Gnostics. To them, this book is a textbook of thier religion.