curtins Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Blonde-omg u REEEEEEEEALLY have to read the da vinci code Blonde: im so serious Blonde- u HAVE to CuRtIns-ill see CuRtIns-the author has an agenda with the Catholic church Blonde-but OM-.. gosh.. it makes me SOOOOO bad Blonde-mad* Blonde-yes i kno he does.. nd it makes me sooo mad at the church CuRtIns-but u have to remember that its a fictional novel Blonde-nd everything u have to read it Blonde-thats true but many things r true in it CuRtIns-THE BOOK IS NOT SCRIPTURE CuRtIns-NO Blonde-in the begining of the book CuRtIns-its a fictional novel written by a guy who dislikes the church Blonde-it says although this book is fictional many of the .. wait wat do they call it CuRtIns-and anyone who takes it to be the truth of Jesus Christ is very nieave CuRtIns-im not sayin thats u CuRtIns-but alot of ppl CuRtIns-believe it CuRtIns-which is sad CuRtIns-but it sounds like a good story Blonde-"All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituaals in this novel are accurate." Blonde-which is BASICALLY saying Blonde-thats the documents found that were taken out of the bible Blonde-are true (which i also saw on the history channel) CuRtIns-ok CuRtIns-and Blonde-such as....The Dead Sea Scrolls which depict Jesus Christ's life as a mortal while married to Mary Magdelen CuRtIns-i dont know much about the dead sea scrolls CuRtIns-but they are not the bible Blonde-yeah bc the catholic church has kept them hidden CuRtIns-the info can be taken from the dead sea scrolls Blonde-bc it would destroy the entire religion CuRtIns-but that doesnt mean that the scrolls itself are accurate Blonde-no they r i was watching it on the history channel with my dad Blonde-oh Blonde-oooh Blonde-yes but Blonde-i was watching this show Blonde-nd they wer saying how wen christianity was formed *which was like a long time after jesus's death.. i dont remember the exact amount of years* many things were changed to build a better religion on Blonde-such as Jesus being the Son of God instead of a mortal who preached to millions Blonde-and im not saying Jesus ISNT the Son of God Blonde-im just saying that people believe thats a possibility Blonde-b/c Blonde-wait Blonde-wait CuRtIns-thats a herrasiy Blonde-wait Blonde-WAIT CuRtIns-i learned about that in religion that ppl believed Jesus wasnt truly divine Blonde-the Bible was a document written by men.. not God.. the Bible is basically something people wrote down after everything happened and who is to say that alot of it wasnt changed in some way? Blonde-MAN wrote the Bible Blonde-NOT God CuRtIns-man was inspired Blonde-and please dont get me wrong here CuRtIns-by God Blonde-im not going against the church or anything Blonde-im just trying to say... the Bible was written by man.. and there is no proof it wasnt ever changed CuRtIns-God CLEARLY STATED MANY TIMES in the old and new testament that Jesus was/is God and was/is the son of God Blonde-GOD DIDNT STATE IT BC GOD DIDNT WRITE IT Blonde-DID GOD Blonde-COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN Blonde-AND WRITE THE BIBLE?! Blonde-NO HE DIDNT! CuRtIns-no Blonde-MAN WROTE THE BIBLE! CuRtIns-ok deep breath Blonde-SO HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THEY NEVER CHANGED IT IN SOME WAY?! Blonde-you dont kno Blonde-its caleld faith CuRtIns-yea it is Blonde-yes Blonde-im just trying to say CuRtIns-scripture and tradition Blonde-that there is a possibility.. that it was changed CuRtIns-ill get back to u on that Blonde-no bc thats a question that cant be answered Blonde-christianity was formed.. it wasnt here from the begining of time Blonde-i believe.. im not saying u have to or anything im just giving u my opinion.. that Jesus was married to Mary Magdelene.. nd i think its wrong and corrupt that even tho those documents not be entirely true that they were hidden bc the church was afraid Blonde-may not* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Hey, I'm not exactly sure what you meant by putting this in the debate phorum, but I hope this helps. 1. Your friend was right in saying that all the descriptions of historical documents, architecture, etc were accurate, however this doesnt mean that the theology behind the religious documents is correct. Just like we don't accept the fact that the Koran is 'the truth' we still aknowledge its place in history... that sort of thing. The parts about art and history and architecture are all very factual and interesting though. 2. God actually did say that Jesus was his son, he sent an Angel to Mary who acted as messenger and said straight out you have been chosen to be the mother of God's son. 3. The Catholic Church did NOT hide the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Essenes, a group of Jewish monastic types feared that the invaders would destroy all the documentation and what not so they recorded it and hid it in a cave where it was recently discovered and used to better translate the Bible. [quote]Blonde-"All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituaals in this novel are accurate." Blonde-which is BASICALLY saying Blonde-thats the documents found that were taken out of the bible Blonde-are true (which i also saw on the history channel)[/quote] I watched the History channel documentary(s - there were a few) on this and yeah... your friend has horribly misplaced the context of him saying that descriptions are accurate. He is saying, like I previously said, that the descriptions are true, not that they are 100 percent divine. He is talking about how well he investigated the various Churches, Gnostic Gospels, Locations, Paintings, etc. Even if he was saying that they were all true, I think its important to remember that Dan Brown is a novelist and not exactly somebody to be basing your faith on. I hope this helps, Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 By the way, I agree, you really have to read the book - its as entertaining as Jesuits at a Grad party. Peace, Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 (edited) Brief history of the DSS. Hiden before 80BC > Found 1947 Kinda hard for the Church to hide something it never knew existed, and how was it found? an arab using it as toilet paper and fire fuel.. Ill get some sources for you to quote. Edited June 21, 2004 by MorphRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 [color=blue][b]© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. ENCARTA STANDARD 2004[/b][/color] [b]II DISCOVERY AND EXPLORATION[/b] The seven principal scrolls were discovered by Bedouins and were purchased partly by the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and partly by the Syrian monastery of St Mark in Jerusalem. The scrolls in the possession of the Syrian monastery were later purchased by the government of Israel. The initial discovery of the scrolls was followed by scientific exploration of the neighbouring caves under the auspices of the Department of Antiquities of Jordan, the Dominican École Biblique et Archéologique of Jerusalem, and the Palestine Archaeological Museum (now the Rockefeller Museum). These explorations, and further purchases from the Bedouins, yielded tens of thousands of additional fragments, as well as a record of buried treasure punched out in Hebrew characters on strips of copper. The last discovery relating to the Dead Sea Scrolls was made in 1956 and the area has since been extensively surveyed and excavated. Nevertheless, in December 1995, in a location that was kept secret for fear of looting, excavations of four newly discovered caves began in the Qumran area, only some 180 m (200 yd) from the caves in which the original discovery was made in 1947. The manuscripts appear to have been part of the Jewish brotherhood's library in what is now Khirbet Qumran, near the place of their discovery. Palaeographic evidence indicates that most of the documents were written at various dates between approximately 200 bc and ad 68. Archaeological evidence further supports the latter date, for excavations at the site establish that it was sacked in ad 68. An army under the command of the Roman general Vespasian may have plundered the community while en route to suppress a Jewish rebellion begun in ad 66. Presumably, the documents were hidden at some time between ad 66 and 68. [b]III CONTENTS OF THE SCROLLS[/b] [color=blue][b]© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. ENCARTA STANDARD 2004[/b][/color] The Qumran brotherhood is portrayed in the manuals of discipline as a kind of model House of Israel, designed to prepare the way for the imminent coming of the kingdom of God and the day of judgment. The brotherhood was constituted along communistic lines and in imitation of the organization of Israel under Moses. Members underwent a two- or three-year probation and were graded in ascending degrees of purity. Promotions and demotions were voted at an annual review. The spiritual direction was vested in 3 priests, aided by 12 lay presbyters (elders), and each of several “chapters” was administered by an overseer whose position resembled that of a bishop. The overseers were subject in turn to an “archbishop”, or “prince”, of the entire order. Study of the Law, the first section of the Hebrew Bible, was obligatory, and it was claimed that the correct interpretation of it had been handed down by a series of spiritual monitors, known as “correct expositors”, or “teachers of righteousness”. The era in which the brotherhood lived was expected to end with the appearance of a new expositor and prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18). Details of a final war between the “sons of light” and the “sons of darkness” are contained in one of the scrolls. Similarities between the beliefs and practices described in the scrolls and those credited to the Essenes by the Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher Philo Judaeus and by the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus have suggested to many scholars that the Qumran brotherhood is related to that sect. Further evidence for this identification may be found in the works of the Roman writer Pliny the Elder, who reported that the Essenes in his day lived in the Khirbet Qumran area. Other scholars, however, stress the difference between the Qumran brotherhood and the Essenes, implying a general affinity rather than a specific identity. [b]V SIGNIFICANCE FOR BIBLICAL SCHOLARS[/b] [color=blue][b]© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. ENCARTA STANDARD 2004[/b][/color] Many ideas found in the Dead Sea Scrolls recur in the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament and in the earlier parts of the Talmud. In addition, many parallels with Iranian concepts provide evidence of the extent to which Jewish thought was indebted to that source during the intertestamental period. The many links between the thought and idiom of the scrolls and of the New Testament are of special interest. Both emphasize the imminence of the kingdom of God, the need for immediate repentance, and the expected discomfiture of Belial, the Evil One. Similar references occur in both to baptism in the Holy Spirit, and similar characterizations are found of the faithful as “the elect” and the “children of light”; for biblical references, see, for example, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, Ephresians 5:8. These parallels are the more arresting because the Qumran brotherhood lived at the same time and in the same area as John the Baptist, whose ideas were subsequently reflected in the teachings of Jesus. Theologians are also interested in possible similarities between fragments of text found at Qumran and the New Testament. A piece of scroll has recently been shown to contain a phrase very similar to one from the Gospel of St Mark. If such a relationship could be established, it would constitute the first link between the Essenes and the Early Christians. As they were discovered, the manuscripts were put under the control of the Israeli Antiquities Authority by the government of Israel. The longer and more complete scrolls have been published by the American School of Oriental Research, the Hebrew University, and the Jordanian Service of Antiquities. The majority of the material is in tiny, brittle fragments, however, and the pace of publication has been exceedingly slow. In September 1991, scholars at Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, Ohio, announced that they had used a published concordance to create a computer-generated text of one of the unreleased scrolls. The same month, officials at the Huntington Library in San Marino, California, granted unrestricted access to the library's complete set of photographs of the scrolls, and subsequently the scholars of the Israeli Antiquities Authority likewise consented to allow unrestricted access to all unpublished material. Most of the scrolls are now in the Shrine of the Book and in the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem, and the Museum of the Department of Antiquities in Amman. A number of translations of the manuscripts and commentaries on them have been written since their discovery. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ill get another Non-Catholic Source. paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 [b][color=blue][url="http://www.nla.gov.au/worldtreasures/html/theme-religion-4-dead_sea_scroll.html"]National Library of Australia - Dead Sea Scrolls[/url][/color][/b] [b]Dead Sea Scroll c.250 BCE–65 CE[/b] The Dead Sea Scrolls are a collection of around 800 fragmented ancient Hebrew manuscripts, discovered between 1947 and 1956 in caves near the ancient settlement of Qumran, on the shores of the Dead Sea, near Jerusalem. The scrolls comprise, amongst other things, the oldest copies in existence of the Hebrew Bible, which Christians know as the Old Testament. The Qumran scrolls date from approximately 250 BCE to about 65 CE, and give us texts of the Bible that were copied more than 1000 years earlier than any others now extant. The most commonly accepted scholarly opinion is that the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, belonged to the library of an ascetic, monastic and separatist Jewish sect called the Essenes, who had retreated to Qumran. It is generally agreed that the Qumran community died out in 68 CE. Scrolls related to those found at Qumran were also found at Masada, the Herodian fortress taken over by Jewish Zealots after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE and finally taken by the Romans in 73 CE. All of these scrolls are of great interest to both Jews and Christians. They represent a non-Rabbinic form of Judaism, and also contain many important parallels to the stories of Jesus, although none of the scrolls contain any explicit mention of Jesus or any other New Testament figure. Apart from the biblical and apocryphal texts preserved at Qumran, the most original writings are sectarian. These include the community rules (or Manual of Discipline), ordinances, calendars, apocalyptic visions and liturgical texts. The scrolls have also enabled scholars to gather an immense amount of information on how the Bible was written and how it was transmitted from generation to generation. The scroll exhibited here consists of six columns, one of them only partially preserved. The manuscript, written in the characteristic script of the Herodian period (second half of the first century BCE), includes the partial text of the Ten Commandments. [b][color=blue][url="http://www.nla.gov.au/worldtreasures/html/theme-religion-4-dead_sea_scroll.html"]National Library of Australia - Dead Sea Scrolls[/url][/color][/b] Hope that helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=12443&hl=dead+sea+scrolls"][b]here[/b][/url] is a link to an earlier thread here in the apo board where we discussed the dead sea scrolls. in it you will find some very helpful articles and discussion. make sure u peep that too pax christi, phatcatholic ps: also, i'm closing this thread b/c there is no need for two on the same topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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