Entering a community with a lot of old sisters

[Gabriela]

6 hours ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

WHere did I say I was considering communities with sisters against non-negotiable teachings ?? I didn't even give the name, you can't presume that. 

If I'm not mistaken, Thijs always assumes that sisters who are not in habit are in defiance of the Magisterium.

Just move on...

[veritasluxmea]

there are a lot of great posts here, so I can't say anything that hasn't been said already... I just want to echo what St John Paul the Great said, Do not be afraid! There are always pros and cons with every community and every vocation. Looking from the outside, it's easy to see the highlights of other vocations, but the struggles are there for everyone as much as they are for you. You'll be most happy where you can be yourself.  When it's time, go for it. 

[Sister Leticia]

On ‎03‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 9:40 AM, NadaTeTurbe said:

Sister, before judging if a community have vocations or not, I wait to speak with the sisters and ask them, because internet is not very used in France ! The Little Sisters of the Poor don't even have a website. And posting about postulants and novice on the internet is very foreign. some communities do it - many traditionnalist such as the Little Sisters of the Consolation or the Adorers of the Royal Heart, but the majority don't do it - even the young and vibrant communities. It's not in our culture, we're not really into communication. Also, postulant and novice, you never know if they're going to stay, you don't want to put them under pressure. Anyway, when I say that (some of) the communities I like are ageing in France, it's because of first-hand contact. 

I know a little your community. I'm not really into ignatian spirituality, even if, honestly, I just don't understand it ! I also know about the Cenacle sisters - they are ignatian too, the have vocations and are very nice. I have a life of St Madeleine Sophie Barrat waiting in my library  What are your apostolate ? Only teaching or more ? 

Thank you for explaining something of French attitudes to the internet and publicity - it explains a lot, and gives me more context to some conversations we've had across Provinces about communication, social media etc.

As you will find out when you read the biography of St M Sophie (  ) the Society was founded in post-Revolutionary France for the education of minds and hearts of young girls. For a long time this meant running schools, colleges and teacher-training colleges, and animating groups of alumnae who did charitable work. However, in the last 50 years our understanding of education has expanded, to embrace many more types of service, but all done with the heart of an educator - eg pastoral, spiritual direction, work in chaplaincies, counselling, adult literacy, work with refugees, trafficked women etc. And yes, of course - some RSCJ also work in schools and colleges!

You can read more about this on the website of my Province http://www.societysacredheart.org.uk/BeingRSCJ/Fullyapostolic/Oureducationalmission.aspx

And you may not want to know this... but I knew hardly anything about Ignatian spirituality when I entered! Luckily, it hadn't really impacted on me that the Society is part of the Ignatian family, as I had a good friend who was very scathing about Ignatian spirituality, so I could easily have been influenced by her. Instead, the first and foremost thing I encountered was the Society's spirituality of the Heart, begun by Sophie's intuitions and experience of God, and nurtured and developed by successive generations, and this is really the predominant spirituality within the congregation. Again, there's something about this on our website

http://www.societysacredheart.org.uk/BeingRSCJ/Fullycontemplative/Ourcharismspirituality.aspx

[Spem in alium]

On 7/3/2016 at 6:40 PM, NadaTeTurbe said:

Spem, I hoped you would answer. I'll PM you. Reading your journey is really an inspiration for me, thank you for sharing it. 

It would be so much easier if God's will was like Hogwarts : . " Here's a letter. You're going to enter an active community. Here's a sorting hat, it's going to choose your community. Congratulation, you're a Daughter of Charity !" Anyway, I'm lucky to have a good SD. These times, he can't stop speaking about the female branch of his congregation, and how they have vocations, are dynamics, etc... I think he's trying to tell me something  

Anytime, Nada. Thank you for your kind words - I feel it important to share, because there seem to be more and more young women in a similar situation (discerning with orders who have not had many vocations in recent years or who are struggling with numbers). There seems to be a growing obsession with the new rather than faithfulness to the old, and that's sad because it's the old who have stood the test of time. And in my country, at least, it's frequently the same sisters and congregations who are promoted, so people come to know them and think they are the only orders around when there are in fact many groups of religious women available. Last year I was interviewed for my diocesan newspaper, and I've seen how amazing media exposure can be - even now I get people telling me they recognise me from the video or paper interview; once a stranger on the street even told me.

And having a Hogwarts-like discernment would be fun, I think -- and a whole lot easier! But then again, it would take some of the beauty out of discernment. If discernment was easy like that, I don't think we'd really come to know God. Knowing God, and trusting Him, is in my view essential when discerning. From my experience, my discernment helped me seriously to come to know God, to know His love and faithfulness and what He has done and continues to do for me. I don't think I would have come to that realisation if it wasn't challenging or hard. 

Edited July 7, 2016 by Spem in alium

[Sister Leticia]

On ‎01‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 10:49 PM, Sponsa-Christi said:

Sometimes, all it takes is one young person to join an older community before more younger vocations start entering. It is possible that if you entered an older community, more people your age and younger might be able to envision religious life in that community as a possibility for them, too.

It can work the other way as well.

About 30 years ago, when a good friend entered religious life, she had 3 other novices with her. In the next few years another 4 women entered. So it all looked very healthy and hopeful. But by the time she made her final vows all bar one of those 7 women had left! - and nobody else had entered and stayed. Since then they've had a few entrants, but only 2 more have made final vows, so their average age has definitely increased, and their numbers have decreased as people have also died.

Luckily, when my friend was discerning all the congregations she visited had at least a couple in formation, so she wasn't swayed by numbers of novices and young ones. She entered because this was where she felt called, and where she felt God wanted her to be - and that's the same reason she has stayed. Yes, the community she entered and the one she made her final vows in looked and felt different, if only because there was less youthful energy and vigour - and yes, she found all the departures hard and destabilising at times - but their charism, way of prayer, community life and mission were still the same and those were what had attracted her 30 years ago and have kept her there ever since, along with a strong sense of call, regardless of circumstances.

[Quasar]

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 7:32 PM, Totally Franciscan said:

I entered a Carmelite monastery when I was 28.  All the other fifteen sisters were at least twenty years older than I, most much more so.  I can say I actually never gave the age difference a thought.  I was one of them, and they treated me as a sister, not a grand daughter.  There was much wisdom to learn from these older sisters, and I loved each and every one.  They were an example to me of how to live out the vows of poverty, chastity, and especially obedience.  They were amazing!  Unfortunately, the bishop suppressed the order.  Those in solemn vows were given the choice of returning to lay life with family members or going to other communities.  Those too old to enter another community or those with no family were placed in a Catholic nursing home, and the diocese paid all their expenses until death.  

Totally Franciscan -

I'm so sorry to hear that this lovely community was suppressed.   If you don't mind sharing,did you transfer to another community after this?

[Totally Franciscan]

5 hours ago, Quasar said:

Totally Franciscan -

I'm so sorry to hear that this lovely community was suppressed.   If you don't mind sharing,did you transfer to another community after this?

Thank you for asking Quasar!  No, I didn't transfer to another community; I wish I had.  All my life, I have thought that God was calling me to religious life.  When I was 18, I entered a teaching order and loved the life very much, but I became ill due to food allergies and left - probably the greatest regret of my life.  Ten years later, I was accepted into this Carmelite community, but things were not as they should have been, and the bishop suppressed the order.  Life happened, and then became too old to be accepted into any community.  Well, God does have mysterious ways!  Perhaps religious life was more my will than His.  Blessings on your journey Quasar!

[NadaTeTurbe]

1 hour ago, Totally Franciscan said:

Thank you for asking Quasar!  No, I didn't transfer to another community; I wish I had.  All my life, I have thought that God was calling me to religious life.  When I was 18, I entered a teaching order and loved the life very much, but I became ill due to food allergies and left - probably the greatest regret of my life.  Ten years later, I was accepted into this Carmelite community, but things were not as they should have been, and the bishop suppressed the order.  Life happened, and then became too old to be accepted into any community.  Well, God does have mysterious ways!  Perhaps religious life was more my will than His.  Blessings on your journey Quasar!

You can still consider Secular Institute. You are consecrated by the evangelicals counsels, but living in the world. There is a carmelite Secular Institute called "Notre Dame de Vie" (OUr Lady of Life). It was founded by (future blessed !) Marie-Eugène de l'Enfant Jésus, who wrote an amazing book called "I want to see God". Anway, it's refreshing to see with how much peace you take your journey in and out religious life. Keep trusting in God and blessings  

[Quasar]

10 hours ago, Totally Franciscan said:

Thank you for asking Quasar!  No, I didn't transfer to another community; I wish I had.  All my life, I have thought that God was calling me to religious life.  When I was 18, I entered a teaching order and loved the life very much, but I became ill due to food allergies and left - probably the greatest regret of my life.  Ten years later, I was accepted into this Carmelite community, but things were not as they should have been, and the bishop suppressed the order.  Life happened, and then became too old to be accepted into any community.  Well, God does have mysterious ways!  Perhaps religious life was more my will than His.  Blessings on your journey Quasar!

Totally Franciscan,

 

Thank you for sharing your story.  I admire your courage in answering God's call not once, but twice!  I imagine there is much wisdom you gleaned from your time spent in religious life.  Thanks for your example of courage and grace. 

 

[Hna.Caridad]

“About 30 years ago, when a good friend entered religious life, she had 3 other novices with her. In the next few years another 4 women entered. So it all looked very healthy and hopeful. But by the time she made her final vows all bar one of those 7 women had left! - and nobody else had entered and stayed. Since then they've had a few entrants, but only 2 more have made final vows, so their average age has definitely increased, and their numbers have decreased as people have also died.”

This is very similar to what happened to me.  It’s not as scary as it sounds—especially since I made my vows to God and God continues to be faithful to me (I try to reciprocate as best I can!)

One thing that I’ve noticed over the last 10 years or so is that the “growing” communities (with the exception of just a few) are also the “newer” communities—those who were founded after Vatican II and who, with the exception of their foundresses, have almost no Sisters in their 70’s and practically none in their 80’s, 90’s, or over 100.

I certainly understand that youth attracts youth and that it can be a bit intimidating to enter a congregation that is made up almost entirely of “older” Sisters (and most congregations founded prior to Vatican II in the U.S. & Europe do have a lot of older Sisters because those congregations were the ones that were around to accept the huge entrances classes of the 1940s & 1950s), and…I can’t help but wonder what role the “throw away” culture also plays in this dynamic in that new & young=good/healthy/”orthodox” while old & established=bad/unhealthy/”heterodox” (I find the heterodox label to be particularly offensive because it is almost exclusively lobbed at the older, established congregations, despite the fact that the Sisters in these congregations have been living [for decades] and continue to live lives that are faithful to God and to their approved Constitutions.  Religious Life doesn’t get any more orthodox than that.

Nada, really, the only “red flag” that I might see in your discernment (and from what you’ve written, I can’t even tell for sure if it’s there) is that your spiritual director seems to be pushing you toward a community in which he has a vested interest.  I’m not telling you not to discern with that community—I’m only saying that if you do decide to discern with them, it would be wise to do so with the help of a more detached spiritual director.

Regardless of what you do, you can count on my prayers as you continue to listen for and respond to that still, small voice of God.  Please also be assured that you & your country are in my prayers and those of our Sisters during this time of yet more violence and sadness.

[Sponsa-Christi]

17 minutes ago, Hna.Caridad said:

One thing that I’ve noticed over the last 10 years or so is that the “growing” communities (with the exception of just a few) are also the “newer” communities—those who were founded after Vatican II and who, with the exception of their foundresses, have almost no Sisters in their 70’s and practically none in their 80’s, 90’s, or over 100.

This might actually just be more of a math/statistics issue than anything else. New communities almost by definition have fewer members than established communities, so even a few new members in a new community will look like major growth.

For example, if a new community starts with two founding members, then they get one new postulant, then the community has grown by 50 percent. On paper, this looks like amazing growth!

But on the other hand, if an established community has 200 members, and they get two new postulants at the same time that three elderly members die, then their community has technically diminished---even though in reality they had twice as many postulants as the new community.

Also, I can think of a number of well-established communities that regularly have young women joining them. Off the top of my head of course are the Nashville Dominicans and the Summit Dominicans. But also the Parish Visitors (founded 1920) usually always have at least one or two women in formation, which is "enough" for them proportionally since they have always been a small community (I think their largest novice class EVER was only something like eight or ten). Other well-established communities that have active novitiates include: the Apostles of the Sacred Heart, the Franciscan Sisters of the Martyr St. George, the Carmelite Sisters in Los Angeles, the Little Sisters of the Poor, the Salesian Sisters, and the Daughters of St. Paul among others. 

[NadaTeTurbe]

On 15/07/2016 at 4:14 AM, Hna.Caridad said:

“About 30 years ago, when a good friend entered religious life, she had 3 other novices with her. In the next few years another 4 women entered. So it all looked very healthy and hopeful. But by the time she made her final vows all bar one of those 7 women had left! - and nobody else had entered and stayed. Since then they've had a few entrants, but only 2 more have made final vows, so their average age has definitely increased, and their numbers have decreased as people have also died.”

 

This is very similar to what happened to me.  It’s not as scary as it sounds—especially since I made my vows to God and God continues to be faithful to me (I try to reciprocate as best I can!)

 

One thing that I’ve noticed over the last 10 years or so is that the “growing” communities (with the exception of just a few) are also the “newer” communities—those who were founded after Vatican II and who, with the exception of their foundresses, have almost no Sisters in their 70’s and practically none in their 80’s, 90’s, or over 100.

 

I certainly understand that youth attracts youth and that it can be a bit intimidating to enter a congregation that is made up almost entirely of “older” Sisters (and most congregations founded prior to Vatican II in the U.S. & Europe do have a lot of older Sisters because those congregations were the ones that were around to accept the huge entrances classes of the 1940s & 1950s), and…I can’t help but wonder what role the “throw away” culture also plays in this dynamic in that new & young=good/healthy/”orthodox” while old & established=bad/unhealthy/”heterodox” (I find the heterodox label to be particularly offensive because it is almost exclusively lobbed at the older, established congregations, despite the fact that the Sisters in these congregations have been living [for decades] and continue to live lives that are faithful to God and to their approved Constitutions.  Religious Life doesn’t get any more orthodox than that.

 

Nada, really, the only “red flag” that I might see in your discernment (and from what you’ve written, I can’t even tell for sure if it’s there) is that your spiritual director seems to be pushing you toward a community in which he has a vested interest.  I’m not telling you not to discern with that community—I’m only saying that if you do decide to discern with them, it would be wise to do so with the help of a more detached spiritual director.

 

Regardless of what you do, you can count on my prayers as you continue to listen for and respond to that still, small voice of God.  Please also be assured that you & your country are in my prayers and those of our Sisters during this time of yet more violence and sadness.

 

Your analysis is interesting. Please allow me some reflections about the situation in France, who is a little different than in the US : 

A lot of the (new) communities who are attracting vocations in France : 
- have a strong identity : Charismatic or traditionnalist. I don't really see, like in the US, "midlde-ground conservative". 
- have an apostolate who make it easier to be known and have vocations : 
  - they organize big "festivals" at their motherhouse, aimed at youth and family 
  - They organize pilgrimages, summer camps, with their movements 
  - Very often, their main apostolate is to take care of youth group, parents group, etc... centered on their own spirituality. 
it's easier in this situation, to be known by the youth, than sisters working with the elderly, or sisters working in parish without putting their charism first. I don't know if I'm clear, and again, this is only about France. 

(I swear, when I'm older, I'll do an extensive studies of the new communities in France after VII, and of the new communities in the US after VII, because I see many differences)

i see you're an "hermana de la caridad". Would you agree to tell me wich congregation you're part of  ? Thank you. 

Don't worry about my SD and this community. He knows I love hearing stories of women founding religious institutes in the XIXth, so he wants to share with me the life and community of Marie-Euphrasie Pelletiers. But he is very respectful of my conscience, and he's not very "directive" - he doesn't give orders, but guide me so I can make good decisions for my spiritual life. He's one of the best  

Thank you for your prayers for me our poor motherland. We need them. 

[sr.christinaosf]

I feel the same way about our area of the country.  So often, it seems, young women go off to another part of the country to join a newer order.  I feel that the local church here needs vocations to the religious life and am disappointed when people go elsewhere.  

[truthfinder]

1 hour ago, sr.christinaosf said:

I feel the same way about our area of the country.  So often, it seems, young women go off to another part of the country to join a newer order.  I feel that the local church here needs vocations to the religious life and am disappointed when people go elsewhere.  

This reminds me of at least two now-deceased sisters who, when asked why they entered a particular order, answered because it was one of the closest (or only) community around them.  

I have my worries about some of the younger orders because they have no elderly sisters (or only a handful) - do they really know how they'll treat their cohorts of nuns when all of a sudden there's 20-50 of them who hit 'retirement' age?