Brexit

[beatitude]

11 hours ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

Do you think that the politicians could choose to ignore the referendum ?

I'm all about welcoming british, spanish, syrian, whatever, as long as they make the effort to learn french  The couple living in our village doesn't want the nationality, so they don't even know how to say bonjour. We'll be more than happy to welcome you ! However, I hope you will be able to stay home. Britain have a strong economy, in the long term, if good decision are taken, I'm sure you'll be good. 

I said to a friend that Britain was leaving Europe, and her answer was "Why are they leaving a football tournament ? "  

Economies aren't static. They react to change, and the plummet in the pound demonstrates that. We are set to sustain more losses.

The cheering squad for departure from the EU are politicians like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson (and Johnson is very likely our next Prime Minister). I have a hard time believing that anything with this crew at the helm will turn out good, or that good decisions will be taken - their parties have a track record of favouring people who are wealthy and dishing up croutons to everyone else. This is bad, and I do not want to end up stuck on an island in this happy gang if my worst fears are realised. Look at the politicians who have campaigned most energetically for Leave, and all of them favour scrapping the Human Rights Act. UKIP even has it as party policy. Even if the Act stays in place, this outcome is not going to be easy for anyone on minimum wage or anyone who does long shifts. Everyone at work today was shaken up, especially the nursing team. There is a lot to lose and it will hit low-waged people and other vulnerable groups especially hard.

Cameron has resigned and is committed to seeing the referendum go through, but if other negative consequences come into play (such as Scotland's departure) it may be that they won't risk the dangers just to push the result through. While there are a handful of pro-Brexit voices that did offer arguments other than "Foreigners taking our jobs!", they are a minority. Xenophobia genuinely was the driving force behind this. It was slathered over the Express and the Sun, on UKIP's campaign vans, on everything, because they were trying to appeal to certain fears and a certain voter base. The UK does not suffer from over-immigration and many of the problems that Farage et al have tried to pin on immigrants are the consequence of austerity cuts. It was fear-mongering and nothing else.

I think most of the Americans who favour 'Leave' seem to be trying to apply US political dynamics (the arguments about state-level governance versus big government) to the EU in a way that doesn't accurately reflect how the EU works.

[beatitude]

3 hours ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

A facist, racist, antisemitic party, the FN, is calling for a referendum in France. It will never happen. 

That's what we thought in Britain, back in the 1990s. Here the support for a referendum was huge among neo-Nazis and other far-right groups, too. A few days ago a pro-Remain MP for the Labour Party was murdered by a member of Britain First (a racist group of hooligans similar to the FN) as she left a meeting with her constituents. He was shouting, "Put Britain first!" as he killed her.  This article explores the context for that murder quite well.

[KnightofChrist]

I read a lot of the news coming out of Britain before the vote and I got to tell you the stay camp reminded me a lot of that scene from the Ghostbusters when they were warning the mayor of the dangers to NYC if he didn't free them from jail. 

((( Venkman: ...or you could accept the fact that this city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.

Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?

Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor. Real wrath-of-God type stuff!

Venkman: Exactly.

Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!

Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes!

Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave!

Venkman: Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria! )))

The only difference of course is that there aren't really any ghosts and it was mostly just fear mongering, I'd even go so far as to say mental abuse to scare people into submission to vote stay. And of course anyone that defies the globalists are stupid backward racists. But some of the lamest scare threats were that companies would cease to do business with Britain if the leave camp won. Yeah right, companies aren't going to stop doing business because of an exit. Their not just going to turn down billions of pounds/dollars/whatever. That would be stupid. And I think the lamest scare threat was that Doctor Who (and other TV shows) would be cancelled, really, I doubt the BBC would cancel one of their most worldwide popular shows. But then again it's just a TV show. Get a life would ya people.

There is uncertainty in the markets today with stocks, bonds, and currencies but it will level back out again when people wake up from the mental abuse and find out the sun will rise over Britain again and the sky did not fall just because it reclaimed its sovereignty .

19 minutes ago, beatitude said:

That's what we thought in Britain, back in the 1990s. Here the support for a referendum was huge among neo-Nazis and other far-right groups, too. A few days ago a pro-Remain MP for the Labour Party was murdered by a member of Britain First (a racist group of hooligans similar to the FN) as she left a meeting with her constituents. He was shouting, "Put Britain first!" as he killed her.  This article explores the context for that murder quite well.

What solid evidence is there that this murderer was a member of Britain First? I see speculation and rumor but cannot see why this would be used to defame 17 million plus people who voted to leave.

[Gabriela]

52 minutes ago, beatitude said:

I think most of the Americans who favour 'Leave' seem to be trying to apply US political dynamics (the arguments about state-level governance versus big government) to the EU in a way that doesn't accurately reflect how the EU works.

So how do you envision the principle of subsidiarity applying in the case of the EU/UK?

[NadaTeTurbe]

42 minutes ago, beatitude said:

That's what we thought in Britain, back in the 1990s. Here the support for a referendum was huge among neo-Nazis and other far-right groups, too. A few days ago a pro-Remain MP for the Labour Party was murdered by a member of Britain First (a racist group of hooligans similar to the FN) as she left a meeting with her constituents. He was shouting, "Put Britain first!" as he killed her.  This article explores the context for that murder quite well.

The situation is different in France and in the UK. We are a founding member of the EU, while the UK had to beg us to let them in. But also, the UK is not really "in" the EU : no euro, no Schengen, etc... If France leaves the EU, it means going back to the franc, and a BIG majority of people is against it. But if it ever happens, you and I can move to Catalunya in Spain, the far-right is around 1%... 

[Nihil Obstat]

If it is possible for any country anywhere in the world to make progress on social issues... I.E. if we want to stem the tide and eventually roll back the juggernaut on abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage, etc., if the social reign of Christ the King is going to make any headway whatsoever... The way things stand now any progress we make will be in opposition to globalist supporters. The UN and the EU both are forces that work directly against Church teachings. Either reform those institutions or leave them behind, I personally do not care. But the status quo is unacceptable.

[NadaTeTurbe]

I think it's an interesting time to read again Pope Francis address to the European parliament : 

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/11/25/pope_francis_address_to_european_parliament/1112318

Dear Members of the European Parliament, the time has come to work together in building a Europe which revolves not around the economy, but around the sacredness of the human person, around inalienable values.  In building a Europe which courageously embraces its past and confidently looks to its future in order fully to experience the hope of its present.  The time has come for us to abandon the idea of a Europe which is fearful and self-absorbed, in order to revive and encourage a Europe of leadership, a repository of science, art, music, human values and faith as well.  A Europe which contemplates the heavens and pursues lofty ideals.  A Europe which cares for, defends and protects man, every man and woman.  A Europe which bestrides the earth surely and securely, a precious point of reference for all humanity!

[Nihil Obstat]

Hopefully also a Europe which does not abort and contracept and euthanize itself out of existence, and which does not actively promote homosexual unions and uncontrollable secularism.

[NadaTeTurbe]

3 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Hopefully also a Europe which does not abort and contracept and euthanize itself out of existence, and which does not actively promote homosexual unions and uncontrollable secularism.

It's what the Pope call "the sacredness of the human person"

[beatitude]

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

What solid evidence is there that this murderer was a member of Britain First? I see speculation and rumor but cannot see why this would be used to defame 17 million plus people who voted to leave.

Police found material from neo-Nazi groups when they raided his home and he has subsequently been open about his involvement. A photo has emerged of him marching with Britain First activists. He identified himself as a political activist to police. I wasn't suggesting that all the people who voted Leave are in Britain First, just that the tone and content of this debate made for an extremely volatile climate - they provided the petrol for a smoking powder keg. And I know what the tone and content of this debate have been like because I actually live here and I have been subjected to a barrage of arguments from both sides in a way you haven't been, from the campaign vans in the street to the leaflets that were handed out in the train stations. I'm encountering a lot of pro-Leave Americans online who seem convinced that they know everything that there is to know about the EU's impact on the UK and what this campaign has been like from a distance of thousands of miles away, but tonight I am not in any mood to entertain armchair expertise that is based on these assumptions. You can believe what you want to believe about us "mental abuse" victims - unlike this referendum outcome, your views are unlikely to have a tangible effect on me, and I can think of more restful ways to spend an evening than trying to persuade you that we're not brainwashed.

Quote

The situation is different in France and in the UK. We are a founding member of the EU, while the UK had to beg us to let them in. But also, the UK is not really "in" the EU : no euro, no Schengen, etc... If France leaves the EU, it means going back to the franc, and a BIG majority of people is against it. But if it ever happens, you and I can move to Catalunya in Spain, the far-right is around 1%... 

Nada, the Irish Association of Speech and Language Therapists has a recognition agreement with our Royal College, so if things get really bad I will try and transfer my registration over there.  My hospital sent out a letter today to reassure everyone that we will feel no changes in working conditions, etc. for two years at least, so hopefully things will work out for the best in that time. Now I am going to go to sleep and try not to dream of Boris Johnson's face.

[Nihil Obstat]

29 minutes ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

It's what the Pope call "the sacredness of the human person"

I wish he were more explicit during these times in which ambiguity is used to justify so many evils. 

[beatitude]

12 hours ago, Gabriela said:

So how do you envision the principle of subsidiarity applying in the case of the EU/UK?

The Treaty on the European Union discusses this at some length. You may have already read it.

To sum up my view very simply, I envision EU-wide legislation as a safety net that enables the member states' own laws to function effectively in the best interests of their populations. To use employment as an example again, the UK and, say, France have quite significant differences in their employment law - there is no blanket EU legislation on this issue. However, there are some basic directives that safeguard worker rights, preventing employers from forcing people to work more than 48 hours a week (individual workers can opt out of this and work more if they choose) and ensuring that every worker has at least eleven consecutive hours of rest in a 24-hour period. As Nada has said, the UK negotiated a special status in the EU and last year, to appease politicians sceptical of the EU, Cameron tried to negotiate an exception to this directive. This would have meant that these protections were no longer guaranteed for Brits - and they are basic enough and vital enough for me not to want them up for debate every election cycle. To borrow the old adage, I think democracy has to be more than two wolves and a goat deciding on what to have for dinner, and EU membership has by and large prevented it from devolving into that.

We also have representation at the EU-wide level through the European Parliament, so it frustrates me to hear people talking as though Brussels is somehow detached from the UK - it's not like we never had any input into anything.

[Gabriela]

47 minutes ago, beatitude said:

The Treaty on the European Union discusses this at some length. You may have already read it.

To sum up my view very simply, I envision EU-wide legislation as a safety net that enables the member states' own laws to function effectively in the best interests of their populations. To use employment as an example again, the UK and, say, France have quite significant differences in their employment law - there is no blanket EU legislation on this issue. However, there are some basic directives that safeguard worker rights, preventing employers from forcing people to work more than 48 hours a week (individual workers can opt out of this and work more if they choose) and ensuring that every worker has at least eleven consecutive hours of rest in a 24-hour period. As Nada has said, the UK negotiated a special status in the EU and last year, to appease politicians sceptical of the EU, Cameron tried to negotiate an exception to this directive. This would have meant that these protections were no longer guaranteed for Brits - and they are basic enough and vital enough for me not to want them up for debate every election cycle. To borrow the old adage, I think democracy has to be more than two wolves and a goat deciding on what to have for dinner, and EU membership has by and large prevented it from devolving into that.

We also have representation at the EU-wide level through the European Parliament, so it frustrates me to hear people talking as though Brussels is somehow detached from the UK - it's not like we never had any input into these laws. You vote for your MEPs just as you vote for your regular MPs.

I'm not trying to get into a debate, and certainly I'm not trying to argue, so if you want to just let this be, I understand. You know I respect your opinion, beatitude.  

To me, though, it sounds like what you're saying is that being in the EU has guaranteed certain basic human, and especially workers', rights. But you're also saying that the UK keeps negotiating special status for these. So it sounds like what is needed is not EU membership to ensure that these basic rights are respected—that's not working, as you pointed out, or at least, is always in danger of failing—but rather that the people of the UK stand up and demand that British politicians show respect for "the little people", whether the UK is in the EU or not.

You know?

[beatitude]

11 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

I'm not trying to get into a debate, and certainly I'm not trying to argue, so if you want to just let this be, I understand. You know I respect your opinion, beatitude.  

To me, though, it sounds like what you're saying is that being in the EU has guaranteed certain basic human, and especially workers', rights. But you're also saying that the UK keeps negotiating special status for these. So it sounds like what is needed is not EU membership to ensure that these basic rights are respected—that's not working, as you pointed out, or at least, is always in danger of failing—but rather that the people of the UK stand up and demand that British politicians show respect for "the little people", whether the UK is in the EU or not.

You know?

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. Cameron did not succeed in negotiating special status over these issues of employment. The EU would never have allowed that. The special status issues involved things that have less import for people's everyday lives. For example, the UK opted out of the Schengen Agreement on the basis that movement controls that work well on a land mass work less well for an island nation, but British citizens retain the right to freedom of movement within EU member states just as if we were in the Schengen zone.

It is always important to demand that British politicians respect the most vulnerable in society, and I feel that the EU has been one way of voicing that demand. The architects of the Leave campaign want to repeal the Human Rights Act, for example, and sadly once we are out there is very little to keep them from doing that. I daresay a few thousand of us will take to the street with placards, but that wasn't enough to stop tuition fee hikes or the social care cuts, and I'd rather not place all my faith in picket lines.

I know you respect my opinion, and I am not irritated by your comments, as you understand that people living in a particular situation have a perspective that others don't. That applies to Brits in both camps, Leave and Remin. I don't think that not living in Britain disqualifies people from having an opinion (it would be an insular world if it did) but I do get exasperated when Americans whose primary complaint about the EU is that it tries to tell Britain what's best for it then turn round and try to tell me that I don't know what's best for me, and that psychological abuse is the only explanation for my views.

[Maggyie]

The more I'm reading about it... it seems that the rich people living in urban areas like London were in favor of Remain and the working class voted for Leave. The explanation being that of course life is good if you are privileged, and you don't want anything to possibly change that. But if you are struggling to survive, threats about how "this will ruin the economy and your quality of life!" fall flat because the economy already is horrible for you and your quality of life already stinks.