Thoughts On Suffering

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

Yes, so God willed the concentration camps of the world, and God wills each and every abortion. 

No, God does not directly will the above.  Mysteriously to us mortals, He has permitted them (Doctrine of Divine Providence).  To my way of thinking, if God is Ultimate Mystery , then understandable to me that sometimes He will act most mysteriously to my human limitations and fallibility.  We think we know what is good and what is right - but to me it is those qualities that also got screwed up with the fall of Adam and Eve (i.e. original sin in the wake)

We only have words to explain the inexplicable.

 

[Maggyie]

8 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

No, God does not directly will the above.  Mysteriously to us mortals, He has permitted them (Doctrine of Divine Providence).  To my way of thinking, if God is Ultimate Mystery , then understandable to me that sometimes He will act most mysteriously to my human limitations and fallibility.  We think we know what is good and what is right - but to me it is those qualities that also got screwed up with the fall of Adam and Eve (i.e. original sin in the wake)

We only have words to explain the inexplicable.

 

I don't know, the writings Credo posts show that God would never allow abortion unless he willed it to happen. Everything that happens is because God wants it - if you suffer because you have been raped for instance, that trauma comes from God. Or ISIS making young girls into sex slaves or burning people alive - God desires all that misery. Nothing mysterious about it. I accept that this probably is the official doctrine. Maybe Christianity is the wrong religion for me. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Maggyie

[Spem in alium]

7 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

No, God does not directly will the above.  Mysteriously to us mortals, He has permitted them (Doctrine of Divine Providence).  To my way of thinking, if God is Ultimate Mystery , then understandable to me that sometimes He will act most mysteriously to my human limitations and fallibility.  We think we know what is good and what is right - but to me it is those qualities that also got screwed up with the fall of Adam and Eve (i.e. original sin in the wake)

We only have words to explain the inexplicable.

This is the view I hold to - God permits suffering to happen, but He does not will it. God loves us in a way unlike human love, in a way we can't understand at all. I firmly believe that if He loves me so deeply, and in a way I can never be loved by anyone else, He will never willingly cause me pain or suffering. And maybe God wants us to ask of Him why something happened, or why a particular situation had to be so hard, simply because He desires us to go to Him in our suffering and find comfort there. 

God heals our wounds and wants us to trust Him. How then could He both willingly cause suffering, atrocities, etc. and then willingly heal them? I know He is all-powerful, but He is also all-good. It's a mystery to me, truly.

I am determined to read more on this, particularly from official documents of the Church. Pope Francis speaks a lot about God's mercy, and that really resonates with me -- and at the same time, it really seems to challenge the idea presented of a vengeful God.

[Credo in Deum]

21 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

I don't know, the writings Credo posts show that God would never allow abortion unless he willed it to happen. Everything that happens is because God wants it - if you suffer because you have been raped for instance, that trauma comes from God. Or ISIS making young girls into sex slaves or burning people alive - God desires all that misery. Nothing mysterious about it. I accept that this probably is the official doctrine. Maybe Christianity is the wrong religion for me. 

Maybe you need to accept God as he reveals Himself and not the God of your fancy? Our surrender to God involves our entire being, including our concepts of who we think God is. Do you think it was easy for me to accept these things? No! It was not!  Like you I couldn't fathom them, and I couldn't see how God would will such things.  It pushed me close to atheism, but then an interior voice showed me that my thinking was wrong. These horrible events are not proof of an unloving God, and had I felt that they were I would have missed the Ressurection after Good Friday. I would have looked at Christ and said "No loving God would allow/will this to happen to a sinless man" and I would have left Golgotha convinced that there was no God.  Yet now I see that the mystery of all of the horrible things which happen are played out in the drama of our Lord's life, passion, death, and resurrection! Christs life is a testament of the Goodness of a God who wills such things.  It would be hypocritical of me to celebrate Christ's life and then at the same time deny the Father's supreme right to enact the passion and crucifixion in all of us. 

 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

What your priest said does not contradict what has been taught in the writings I've posted.  We are called to search out God's will and one way of doing this is by combating illnesses when they arise. We can be assured it was Gods will that you become ill and that it was God's will that you recover, if you do recover.  Yet if we are to do everything we can and still continue to have illnesses, then we can be assured that it is God's will that they remain. 

My problem is with your wording I think which can be misleading to me.  God does not directly nor indirectly will (i.e. initiating cause of) physical or moral evil, He permits it meaning He is not the initiating cause....in line with our Doctrine of Divine Providence.  Where does physical illness originate?  That can have a few answers.......including if one reads the Book of Job in the first or second paragraphs of Chapter One, we read that Satan must ask God's Permission to assault Job and with a condition applied by God as mandatory on Satan.

My illness was not directly brought about by God since it is an evil and how can God (as we understand Him) bring about an evil? or directly be the cause of evil; however, He did permit my illness for good reasons and I can now grasp a few of them at least with hindsight re before and after onset.  What caused or initiated my illness, that is largely mystery including to medical people, while some medical theories and theories only.  If I do all that I can to overcome bipolar - but my efforts are in vain, then I can be assured God is permitting the situation for good reason or reasons.  I might insight those reasons or I may not.  I may think I can indeed insight reasons, aware that I am not necessarily correct as to all of them.

I have never asked of God a cure for my bipolar illness, all I ever asked of Him was to be able to live my life in the community and in a contributing fashion (i.e. to cope with bipolar).  God has responded my way in my book.  I do understand that bipolar can be a most insidious illness.  I know a woman suffering bipolar seriously who went without an episode for 13 years and returned successfully to her professional career and then a few years further down the line became seriously ill with a psychotic bipolar episode and hospitalized.  Then "Why not me?"..........it might be me in the future I am well aware.  God's Will (direct and permissive) be done. Amen.

36 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

I don't know, the writings Credo posts show that God would never allow abortion unless he willed it to happen. Everything that happens is because God wants it - if you suffer because you have been raped for instance, that trauma comes from God. Or ISIS making young girls into sex slaves or burning people alive - God desires all that misery. Nothing mysterious about it. I accept that this probably is the official doctrine. Maybe Christianity is the wrong religion for me. 

Vast difference between actually willing and being the origin of evil including abortion - and permitting it (initiating cause elsewhere) as per the Catholic Catechism. That is the official doctrine i.e Divine Providence as already quoted.

Quote

Maybe Christianity is the wrong religion for me.

Prayer for your journey.  Not at all unusual to questions one's Faith and religion and I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing at all.  Sometimes clarity re the Faith and religion can be gifted with the questioning and the thoughts and research, reading etc. that goes with the questioning.

Edited June 28, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Credo in Deum]

18 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

My problem is with your wording I think which can be misleading to me.  God does not directly nor indirectly will (i.e. initiating cause of) physical or moral evil, He permits it (meaning He is not the initiating cause)....in line with our Doctrine of Divine Providence.  Where does physical illness originate?  That can have a few answers.......including (if one reads the Book of Job in the first or second paragraphs of Chapter One) we read that Satan must ask God's Permission to assault Job and with a condition applied by God as mandatory on Satan.

My illness was not directly brought about by God since it is an evil and how can God (as we understand Him) bring about an evil?) or directly be the cause of evil; however, He did permit my illness for good reasons and I can now grasp a few of them at least with hindsight re before and after onset.  What caused or initiated my illness, that is largely mystery including to medical people, while some medical theories only.  If I do all that I can to overcome bipolar - but my efforts are in vain, then I can be assured God is permitting the situation for good reason or reason.  I might insight those reasons or I may not.  I may think I can indeed insight reasons, aware that I am not necessarily correct as to all of them.

I have never asked of God a cure for my bipolar illness, all I ever asked of Him was to be able to live my life in the community and in a contributing fashion (i.e. to cope with bipolar).  God has responded favourably in my book.  I do understand that bipolar can be a most insidious illness.  I know a woman suffering bipolar seriously who went without an episode for 13 years and returned successfully to her professional career and then a few years further down the line became seriously ill with a psychotic bipolar episode and hospitalized.  Then "Why not me?"..........it might be me in the future I am well aware.  God's Will (direct and permissive) be done. Amen.

8.   SICKNESS AND INFIRMITY

We ought to conform to the will of God in sickness and infirmity and wish for what He sends us, both at the time it comes and for the time it lasts and with all the circumstances attending it, without wishing for one of them to be changed; and at the same time do all that is reasonable in our power to get well again, because God wishes it so. "For my part" says St. Alphonsus, "I call illness the touchstone of the spirit, for it is then that the true virtue of a man is discovered."  If we feel ourselves becoming impatient or rebellious we should endeavor to repress such feelings and be deeply ashamed of any attempt at opposition to the just decrees of an all-wise God.

St. Bonaventure relates that St. Francis of Assisi was afflicted by an illness which caused him great pain. One of his followers said to him, "Ask Our Lord to treat you a little more gently, for it seems to me He lays His hand too heavily upon you."  Hearing this the saint gave a cry and addressed the man in these words:  "If I did not think that what you have just said comes from the simplicity of your heart without any evil intention I would have no more to do with you, because you have been so rash as to find fault with what God does to me."  Then, though he was very weak from the length and violence of his illness, he threw himself down from the rough bed he was lying on, at the risk of breaking his bones, and kissing the floor of his cell said "I thank you, O Lord, for all the sufferings you send me. I beg you to send me a hundred times more if you think it right. I shall rejoice if it pleases you to afflict me without sparing me in any way, for the accomplishment of your holy will is my greatest consolation."

And in fact if, as St. Ephraim observes, a mule-driver knows how much his mule can carry and does not try to kill it by overloading it, and if the potter knows how long the clay should bake to be suitable for use and does not leave it longer in the kiln than is necessary, then it would show very little appreciation of God to venture to think that He who is wisdom itself and loves us with an infinite love would load our backs with too heavy a burden or leave us longer than is necessary in the fire of tribulation. We can be quite sure that the fire will not last longer or be hotter than is necessary to bake our clay to the right point.

----

Your bipolar condition was give to you by God, Barbra. It was willed by God that you have it and carry it. It is not from the devil and will never be from the devil.  

Edited June 28, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Maggyie]

20 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

Maybe you need to accept God as he reveals Himself and not the God of your fancy? Our surrender to God involves our entire being, including our concepts of who we think God is. Do you think it was easy for me to accept these things? No! It was not!  Like you I couldn't fathom them, and I couldn't see how God would will such things.  It pushed me close to atheism, but then an interior voice showed me that my thinking was wrong. These horrible events are not proof of an unloving God, and had I felt that they were I would have missed the Ressurection after Good Friday. I would have looked at Christ and said "No loving God would allow/will this to happen to a sinless man" and I would have left Golgotha convinced that there was no God.  Yet now I see that the mystery of all of the horrible things which happen are played out in the drama of our Lord's life, passion, death, and resurrection! Christs life is a testament of the Goodness of a God who wills such things.  It would be hypocritical of me to celebrate Christ's life and then at the same time deny the Father's supreme right to enact the passion and crucifixion in all of us. 

 

When I first became convinced about Christianity, it was with reference to the Sacred Heart and Visitation spirituality - the gentle Jesus whose heart suffered for love. Later after many horrible events I instead developed an image of God as the the Lidless Eye, or All Seeing Eye of Sauron. If you do something to catch its attention, it will surely send its ring wraiths to get you. But by practicing avoidance you can put together many years of peace where it is occupied with other things. I was always convinced of God's existence, it's just a matter of whether he is a horrible, frightening Orc god. Especially when you consider that the resurrection you mention will for many just be eternal torment. 

It goes like this:

God tortures you. He doesn't have to, mind, since he is all powerful, but this is his chosen method. You don't react to the pain the way he demands you to.

So when you die... You're going to get it again, forever. 

[Credo in Deum]

4 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

When I first became convinced about Christianity, it was with reference to the Sacred Heart and Visitation spirituality - the gentle Jesus whose heart suffered for love. Later after many horrible events I instead developed an image of God as the the Lidless Eye, or All Seeing Eye of Sauron. If you do something to catch its attention, it will surely send its ring wraiths to get you. But by practicing avoidance you can put together many years of peace where it is occupied with other things. I was always convinced of God's existence, it's just a matter of whether he is a horrible, frightening Orc god. Especially when you consider that the resurrection you mention will for many just be eternal torment. 

It goes like this:

God tortures you. He doesn't have to, mind, since he is all powerful, but this is his chosen method. You don't react to the pain the way he demands you to.

So when you die... You're going to get it again, forever. 

Things to consider:

Gods will is perfect: if you suffer then it is because you need it for your sanctification.

Suffeirng is not evil.  There is nothing evil about suffering. Suffering is a medicine and like all medicine it tastes like poo.  

Suffering, like medicine, is either wasted or utilized.  

God always gives us the grace to bear it.

 

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

We ought to conform to the will of God in sickness and infirmity and wish for what He sends us, both at the time it comes and for the time it lasts and with all the circumstances attending it, without wishing for one of them to be changed; and at the same time do all that is reasonable in our power to get well again, because God wishes it so

I agree absolutely with the wording of St. Alphonsus above.  In the Doctrine of Divine Providence, already quoted, "will of God" is inclusive of His Direct and His Permissive Will -as per Catholic Catechism already quoted.  Also if God "wishes it so" does not indicate that He is the initiating or origin and direct cause of a physical evil (illness and bipolar is an illness) rather that He wishes or permits it so (with cause of physical evil in this instance is elsewhere) for His Good reasons and we can be assured God has very good reasons and hence rest in that hopefully more than any suffering involved.  If one can rest in that mystery of God's good reasons for a suffering, then it  becomes the cause of Peace...even Joy.

Causes or origin of evil, physical or moral, can be from some natural type of cause recognised by our humanity... or even of Satan - and  sly and insidious liar and father of liars.

 

13 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

"I thank you, O Lord, for all the sufferings you send me. I beg you to send me a hundred times more if you think it right. I shall rejoice if it pleases you to afflict me without sparing me in any way, for the accomplishment of your holy will is my greatest consolation."

The above and the attitude of St Francis in his sufferings is probably the highest of attitudes and holiness in personal suffering.

[Maggyie]

12 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

Things to consider:

Gods will is perfect: if you suffer then it is because you need it for your sanctification.

Suffeirng is not evil.  There is nothing evil about suffering. Suffering is a medicine and like all medicine it tastes like poo.  

Suffering, like medicine, is either wasted or utilized.  

God always gives us the grace to bear it.

 

 

So God is not all powerful? He couldn't save us any other way?

[Guest]

One positive out of my own illness is that it taught me to live just for today only and simply because there was no other way for me to survive with constant psychotic episodes necessitating many admissions to hospital over those years.  I learnt to be very grateful even for a day or two between those serious episodes (sometimes I would be discharged from hospital seemingly stable only to be re-admitted a very short time later)..sometimes, I would return to Bethany still with a terrible voice or voices in my head tormenting me but able to live in a normal fashion to outside appearances only.....all that over the long years of my illness is now internalised and habitual (i.e. to live only for today without a concern for tomorrow) and without conscious thought or reflection at all.  I just do it that's all, it is my way of living and existing - without reflective thought whatsoever. The past I leave to God's Mercy, today to His Love and future to His Divine Providence.  All is Grace (St Therese of Lisieux)

One thing that still gives me a giggle.  Is that if I was back in Bethany with those terrible voices in my head, and since I lived alone, I would sometimes speak out loud to them in some sort of derogatory fashion to them anyway.  During those days I could go out and visit ignoring the threatening chatter in my head, but sometimes almost said something to them aloud in company (company that had no idea I was hearing voices as I socialised).  Thankfully, I never did actually speak aloud to those voices while I was in company but can recall some times I almost d8id.  All is Grace (St Therese of Lisieux)

[Credo in Deum]

2 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

The above and the attitude of St Francis in his sufferings is probably the highest of attitudes and holiness in personal suffering.

The only evils in any of the writing God is said to permit are the physical suffering when we receive them due to the sin of another human being.  These are the only things which are ascribed to his permitting will.  Other things like riches, poverty, disease, illness, famon, hunger, thirst, and death are all said to be from his Ordaining Will as in He did not permit but actively ordained them.  This is why St. Francis says "You send me" and why he does not say "The devil sends me".  They are from God's Hand!

"All evils, except sin, are from God. In all sin there are two things to be considered: guilt and punishment. Now God is the Author of the punishment which attaches to sin, but in no way of the guilt. So that, if we take away the guilt, there is no evil belonging to the punishment which is not caused by God, or is not pleasing to Him. The evils then of punishment, like the evils of nature, originate in the Divine Will. We mean by evils of nature, hunger, thirst, disease, grief, and the like, things which very often have no connection with sin. And so God truly [and,  effectively and positively] wills all the evils of punishment and nature for reasons of perfect justice, but only permits sin or guilt.

So that the latter is called His Permitting Will, the former His Ordaining Will. All, therefore, that we call evil proceeds from the Will of God. Thus Theologians teach; and this foundation must be laid as deeply as possible in the soul, for it is of the utmost importance humbly to receive, and ever to hold, as an infallible truth, that the first cause of all punishments and evils is the Divine Will, always excepting guilt, as I have said already.

------

Evil of nature: sickness, death, hunger, thirst, grief are caused by His Ordaining Will not His Permitting Will.  Only when the physical suffering is from anothers sin is it said to be part of his Permitting Will.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

So God is not all powerful? He couldn't save us any other way?

Sometimes suffering can bring about the best lessons in life - depends on one's attitude I guess.  God is all powerful and indeed could have chosen to bring about salvation without suffering.  He chose not to do so (mystery) illustrated by the sufferings and death of His Own Son.  Reflecting on The Passion of Jesus and His Attitude can teach us much, everything, about bearing suffering.  Suffering can be born with Peace, even Joy, and on a felt level.......again it depends on one's attitude most often - while All is Grace  (St Therese of Lisieux) and Grace most often does build on nature

Edited June 28, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Credo in Deum]

12 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

So God is not all powerful? He couldn't save us any other way?

I've never said that. Sure God could have saved us in other ways, but ask yourself, would those ways have known a better or more perfect love than that of Jesus Christ? Is there a greater Love than Jesus Christ?

Edited June 28, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Maggyie]

2 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Sometimes suffering can bring about the best lessons in life - depends on one's attitude I guess.  God is all powerful and indeed could have chosen to bring about salvation without suffering.  He chose not to do so (mystery) illustrated by the sufferings and death of His Own Son.  Reflecting on The Passion of Jesus and His Attitude can teach us much, everything, about bearing suffering.  Suffering can be born with Peace, even Joy, and on a felt level.......again it depends on one's attitude most often - while All is Grace  (St Therese of Lisieux) and Grace most often does build on nature

What lesson should one learn from one's rape or from being burned alive in a cage?

Just now, Credo in Deum said:

I've never said that. Sure God could have saved us in other ways, but ask yourself, would those ways have known a better or more perfect love than that of Jesus Christ? 

The one doesn't follow the other. Because Jesus died on the cross that doesn't mean babies need to be ripped from their father's arms by giant reptiles. It's like an alcoholic, he can stop any time... He just has to want to.