Thoughts On Suffering

[Maggyie]

Really, you think God feeds children to alligators like recently happened? 

No, that is not the work of God.

God is not a puppet master leading us to misery, sending hurricanes to punish New Orleans for sins etc. He is not a puppet master period and that's why he doesn't save the child from the alligator either. Suffering is inevitable because of our fallen world but God has stepped in to our grief. When we wail to him and show him our wounds, he shows us his. Sorry but we KNOW that God cries with us, Scripture tells us that Jesus weeps with us. 

[Guest]

[veritasluxmea]

41 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

See I believe everything is in God's control. All things. As Christ said to Pilate: "You have no power except what is given to you from above." Our mistake is thinking God just sits back and let's things happen when that is not the case at all. 

But at the same time our free will isn't in God's control, and He completely respects our free will which allows us to choose actions which are outside of His desires (someone choosing to rape someone, for example, or someone sun tanning themselves to the point of skin damage) and the natural consequences that result from that (victim suffering from an STD afterwords, getting skin cancer). Not His will... and yet His will in the sense it happens in the world He upholds and in His mercy He will bring it into His plan for our salvation and ultimate happiness. I think the last paragraph in my OP addressed this, it's a similar dichotomy to God's justice and mercy, freedom through obedience, happiness in the cross, and so on. 

I do not think God just sits back and lets things happen and I don't mean to give that impression from my posts. Sometimes terrible things will happen beyond our comprehension like in the book of Job.  But as Maggyie says, He has actively stepped into our grief and taken on our wounds and has compassion on us, even self-inflected wounds from sin or stupidity. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by veritasluxmea

[Nihil Obstat]

I believe the principle here is that all good comes directly from God, including even our own inclinations to do good, whereas all evil comes from man and the devil.  That is the essence of the problem of evil.

[Peace]

8 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I believe the principle here is that all good comes directly from God, including even our own inclinations to do good, whereas all evil comes from man and the devil.  That is the essence of the problem of evil.

Perhaps a better way to think about evil is to define it as the absence of good. If evil comes from one of God's creatures it seems that God would be indirectly responsible for it, by way of creating us.

[CatherineM]

My suffering came from free will. Someone made the choice to try to kill me. 

[Nihil Obstat]

32 minutes ago, Peace said:

Perhaps a better way to think about evil is to define it as the absence of good. If evil comes from one of God's creatures it seems that God would be indirectly responsible for it, by way of creating us.

Yes, that is also a good way to think of it. I was reading about Catholic predestination recently, so that is on the mind.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Holy scripture warns us that our feeling and thoughts can deceive us. Whether one is suffering or not, whatever really and some people suffer well and others not so well. In the love is thread i said something like " true pleasure is born from suffering." I was thinking about a woman giving birth to a child, though i guess the origin of that is pleasure but the origin of that pleasure is pain coz the ones receiving the pleasure where originally birthed which originally came from pleasure, so like which cam 1st the chicken or the egg, unsure anyone has figured that out now that i think about it. Anyhow this space cadet is taking a further journey into outer space and am going to say, i forgot what i was about to say. lol. Truly i just did. Some suffer trials and some relish under pressure, as long as we remain charitable particularly with the body of Christ without forgetting the World than what does it truly matter, we are fulfilling the commandments of love the lord your god and love thy neighbor as thy self which personally i think are one commandment because we love God by loving the body. Gold to the body and silver and bronze to the world with the occasional lump of Gold as long as it does not impede the body in any way, shape or form ( but not scraps).

 But remember in general we have limited control over our thoughts and feelings half the time and they just come and go as they please and that we are not to base our standing with God upon our thoughts and feelings but on whether or not we Love the Lord through Loving his body on the alter and the angels, saints on earth and heaven and the Holy mother, and if we truly do then we will seek to be with them regularly. And if we truly do love God it will show in the fruits we bear, piety, true religion, other religious practices and sharing our money with the poor which includes our pastors and other religious orders who undertake holy vows.

Thinking out loud anyway. TOL. 

 

GodblesS.

 

P.s. Holy scripture also warns us that God knows how much each person can handle and that anything else is from the devil.  Go get a laying of hands for the gift of ' the discernment of Spirits.' i bet that helps in discerning what load is from satan and what is from the devil, the devil can appear as an angel of false light and force you to do so many good works etc that you become overburdened burn out and give up on the faith.

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Credo in Deum]

3 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

But at the same time our free will isn't in God's control, and He completely respects our free will which allows us to choose actions which are outside of His desires (someone choosing to rape someone, for example, or someone sun tanning themselves to the point of skin damage) and the natural consequences that result from that (victim suffering from an STD afterwords, getting skin cancer). Not His will... and yet His will in the sense it happens in the world He upholds and in His mercy He will bring it into His plan for our salvation and ultimate happiness. I think the last paragraph in my OP addressed this, it's a similar dichotomy to God's justice and mercy, freedom through obedience, happiness in the cross, and so on. 

I do not think God just sits back and lets things happen and I don't mean to give that impression from my posts. Sometimes terrible things will happen beyond our comprehension like in the book of Job.  But as Maggyie says, He has actively stepped into our grief and taken on our wounds and has compassion on us, even self-inflected wounds from sin or stupidity. 

Look at Job though. He doesn't say God giveth and Satan taketh away. No, he says God giveth and God taketh away.  It's a mystery even Job had trouble with and when he questioned God, God replied in Chapter 38! The TL;DR version of that chapter is God saying "I know what I'm doing! I control all things!" 

This is true even when sin happens. God is not guilty of the sin, but he is still in control of that person's existence, movement, etc.  This is why sin is so horrible.  It's us using God's active gift to do what is against His will.  Again I would urge you to read the book since I cannot articulate it as well as the priest.  You can read it for free online: http://www.catholictradition.org/Classics/heliotropium.htm#CHAPTERS

 

[veritasluxmea]

12 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

Look at Job though. He doesn't say God giveth and Satan taketh away. No, he says God giveth and God taketh away.  It's a mystery even Job had trouble with and when he questioned God, God replied in Chapter 38! The TL;DR version of that chapter is God saying "I know what I'm doing! I control all things!" 

This is true even when sin happens. God is not guilty of the sin, but he is still in control of that person's existence, movement, etc.  This is why sin is so horrible.  It's us using God's active gift to do what is against His will.  Again I would urge you to read the book since I cannot articulate it as well as the priest.  You can read it for free online: http://www.catholictradition.org/Classics/heliotropium.htm#CHAPTERS

 

I don't disagree with you, although I think some of your earlier points were badly worded. In the book of Job technically God doesn't do the taking away, Satan does. (If Job was a historical figure he probably didn't know Satan existed at that point anyway.) Job's statement is acknowledging that ultimately God is behind the suffering in the sense that God will permit it and bring Job's suffering into His plan for Job's life and salvation history, which He does. Again, that kind of suffering, and how God has a plan for it all, is beyond our comprehension... which God states. I kind of feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over again. :/ This kind of relates to the idea of predestination, I think St Augustine also wrote about that in his Confessions. 

[Peace]

4 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Yes, that is also a good way to think of it. I was reading about Catholic predestination recently, so that is on the mind.

I have been thinking about that stuff lately too. I like the Molinist approach. Have trouble distinguishing between Thomistic and Calvinistic presdestination.

[Nihil Obstat]

40 minutes ago, Peace said:

I have been thinking about that stuff lately too. I like the Molinist approach. Have trouble distinguishing between Thomistic and Calvinistic presdestination.

Have you read Garrigou-Lagrange?

[Credo in Deum]

6 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

I don't disagree with you, although I think some of your earlier points were badly worded. In the book of Job technically God doesn't do the taking away, Satan does. (If Job was a historical figure he probably didn't know Satan existed at that point anyway.) Job's statement is acknowledging that ultimately God is behind the suffering in the sense that God will permit it and bring Job's suffering into His plan for Job's life and salvation history, which He does. Again, that kind of suffering, and how God has a plan for it all, is beyond our comprehension... which God states. I kind of feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over again. :/ This kind of relates to the idea of predestination, I think St Augustine also wrote about that in his Confessions. 

I know you say Satan does the taking away and maybe we're saying the same thing in a different way. Job says God taketh away since He knows Satan, of himself, has zero power to do anything. This is why Satan is seen asking God for permission to tempt Job. Satan couldn't do squat if God didn't permit it. Heck Satan can't even exist without God's permission; therefore, as Job says, God taketh away.  This is something we have to understand when tempted. There is no duality of powers between God and Satan. Their is just God who has all of the power and Satan who has zero power.  We also have to understand that since everything we have is from God, then He has dominion to do what He wills with it. A lot of our suffering would be gone if we accepted this. The problem though is we believe we are entitled to these things. That God owes us these things in order to be a good God.  Yet these things are gifts given by God. We are not entitled to them. If he gives us a gift blessed be God. If he ceases giving us a gift, blessed be God. 

[Maggyie]

2 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

I know you say Satan does the taking away and maybe we're saying the same thing in a different way. Job says God taketh away since He knows Satan, of himself, has zero power to do anything. This is why Satan is seen asking God for permission to tempt Job. Satan couldn't do squat if God didn't permit it. Heck Satan can't even exist without God's permission; therefore, as Job says, God taketh away.  This is something we have to understand when tempted. There is no duality of powers between God and Satan. Their is just God who has all of the power and Satan who has zero power.  We also have to understand that since everything we have is from God, then He has dominion to do what He wills with it. A lot of our suffering would be gone if we accepted this. The problem though is we believe we are entitled to these things. That God owes us these things in order to be a good God.  Yet these things are gifts given by God. We are not entitled to them. If he gives us a gift blessed be God. If he ceases giving us a gift, blessed be God. 

So again you think God feeds babies to alligators?

[Credo in Deum]

15 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

So again you think God feeds babies to alligators?

Was the alligator attack evil? Aren't all of the animals controled by God and follow his will?  If so, then how is God not a part of it? Do animals have free will? Does God not have the Supreme right to do what He wills with His creation? 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Credo in Deum