Thoughts On Suffering

[Guest]

Does this mean we should pray to God for suffering? If life is going good is that bad? If we are not suffering does that mean we really don't love God?

Edited June 22, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

I would tend to think that the highest aspiration and striving would be to do and embrace God's Will, whatever it might be, suffering included.  I do regularly pray that if suffering and the cross should come along that I would do better than I did the last time.  And that "last time" usually means that I have gone through a passage of suffering and the cross and knew then at the time and immediately after that I could have born it better than I did.

An "ardent and constant desire to suffer for His sake" seems to me to be a special sort of valid spirituality, but not necessarily a constant for all.  It seems to me to be what I think is called "victim spirituality" and is certainly a remarkable highly Graced disposition to me.  I would have an ardent and constant desire to suffer if God thus ordains it, but a trifle concerned about my ability to do so - aware of my performance to date.........while acknowledging that with God's Grace and my faithfulness to Grace miracles can happen.  Hence I can pinpoint my unfaithfulness to Grace as the problem and own it in the spirit of "Spirituality of Imperfection" http://www.nouwenlegacy.com/bookreviews_pdf/ACS Book Review.pdf

The Church teaches that suffering is an evil that God Permits, not directly wills (Doctrine of Divine Providence) and I lean always on that Grace permitting............desiring suffering to me personally as my ardent and constant desire I would have problems with.  But I can be only me..........others only their own selves and Graces and charisms granted do differ.  Room for all on this here magic carpet ride!

St Paul said "When I am weak, then I am strong"  To my way of thinking in owning and recognising my weaknesses, I realise that I have to depend on God's Grace, His Strength, for absolutely everything and when I fail in weaknesses as I often do, I recall that Jesus said "I have come to save sinners, the just have no need of me"............and so I go on in the journey.........

Jesus also said "Without Me, you can do nothing"  Hence as St Therese wrote "All is Grace".

Edited June 22, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

I don't think that suffering as a constant and ardent desire for the sake of God is of necessity at all any proof of truly loving God.  Most every virtue can appear to be remarkably holy in another to appearances, but some motivations might not be so holy at all but we never actually sight per se those motivations.

To desire constantly to embrace loving God's Will at all times including love of neighbour can be a sign of truly loving God - but the the motivation aspect as already stated comes into even that.

How can I know I truly love God?  I do wonder if one really can assuredly know this as fact - I can certainly hope to do so however although I would personally be quite fearful of spiritual pride.  But if I consider that human 'perfection' must always fall short of the Perfection of God and hence life and the journey is always one that is somewhat imperfect at very least, I am not to sure what "truly love" means at all and I would myself shy right away from it as any sort of actualy discernment process on a personal level or even assessment of another I suspect.  I can however hope to hope to truly love God constantly and with an ardent desire, both for self and all others.

Edited June 22, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Credo in Deum]

I think you're confusing loving suffering vs loving God to a degree which endures  all pain and suffering. The first is masochism while the second is supernatural charity.  We should always pray to have supernatural charity since it is True Love; the same divine love which loves even though there is no reward.  The love Christ has for the Father and for us.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[CatherineM]

I suffer. Maybe God did that because I could handle it. 

[Spem in alium]

I have suffered since I was born. Oftentimes, people have made comments to me like, "You must be strong enough to handle it", or "You are so blessed, because God only gives the biggest crosses to those who can bear them", or "God's preparing you for heaven", etc. Comments which are well-intentioned, but which ran counter to what I believe about God. 

I honestly don't believe that God causes us suffering through His active will. I don't believe He sits up in Heaven causing us pain and enjoying watching us go through that pain. If I believed that God actively caused all my suffering, I honestly don't think I would still be a postulant in a religious order, or a Catholic for that matter. This is not my God. My belief is that God suffers when we suffer, He cries when we cry, because of how close He really is to us, because, through the Incarnation, He revealed Himself to us and committed to participate in human life, because He dwells in our souls, because He is all-loving in a way that far eclipses human love. 

Just my two cents. Take from it what you will.

[Credo in Deum]

I believe God both ordains certain sufferings and permits certain sufferings. I don't view Him as evil or bad for doing so (Ecclesiasticus 11:14, Hebrews 12:6). He knows best (Isa 55:9). I don't believe God crys when I cry or is sad when I'm sad. I believe there could be times where this is the case, but I don't believe God is always like this and I'm happy He's not. It shows He is a Personal Being.  

 

[Jaime]

we suffer because the world is disordered.  There is not one person in scripture (or history) who said yes to God's will that did not lose everything, went through hell,  and thought to be crazed.  If Jesus couldn't skip suffering, I know I don't have the skill set.   I think God wants us to be happy... eventually.  But while there is suffering, I think we have work to do!

[Seven77]

 I keep thinking of different places in Scripture that talk about suffering. In Romans 8, St. Paul says that all things work together for good. He also says that we are to offer our bodies as living sacrifices.  Then, he also says that he makes up in his body the suffering that is lacking in the sacrifice of Christ, for the sake of the body. Jesus himself says that we have to take up the cross and follow him.

Taken all together, this is what I get out of it: suffering is redemptive. Just as God brought the greatest good from the greatest evil and suffering, he allows it, he allows us to suffer in imitation of his Son. In baptism we are in Christ and become one with him. We suffer in with and through Christ-- our suffering becomes redemptive in him, we can offer up our suffering for the salvation and good of others.

 Basically we are to see ourselves with Christ on the cross whenever we suffer. its an opportunity for love.  We shouldn't go out of our way and look for suffering ( unless we are talking about voluntary penance, etc. that is in the will of God) but just accept, in love, what suffering God allows for us to experience. And whenever we do suffer, Jesus gives us the example of what to do. 

When I went to Lourdes I learned about suffering.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Seven77

[FilleDeStFrancois]

...This always confused me as a child.

It always seemed like many of the Saints suffered greatly and lived pretty horrible lives. Did God want all of us to live poor and hungry and sickly? Do I need to be suffering for Jesus?

I guess these Saints are meant to be more of an example how we CAN suffer in our own ways (giving up our sinful activities, etc) and that will help make us holy.

[veritasluxmea]

21 hours ago, Spem in alium said:

I honestly don't believe that God causes us suffering through His active will. I don't believe He sits up in Heaven causing us pain and enjoying watching us go through that pain. If I believed that God actively caused all my suffering, I honestly don't think I would still be a postulant in a religious order, or a Catholic for that matter. This is not my God. My belief is that God suffers when we suffer, He cries when we cry, because of how close He really is to us, because, through the Incarnation, He revealed Himself to us and committed to participate in human life, because He dwells in our souls, because He is all-loving in a way that far eclipses human love. 

 

20 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

I believe God both ordains certain sufferings and permits certain sufferings. I don't view Him as evil or bad for doing so (Ecclesiasticus 11:14, Hebrews 12:6). He knows best (Isa 55:9). 

 

My understanding is both of these are true- and they don't contradict each other. Suffering, like sin and death, wasn't created by God *per se*, like Spem writes. He doesn't take delight in the suffering of a righteous man or when a sinner perishes. (There is a bible quote on that... but I am to lazy to look it up  ) However, sin, death, suffering, happens to everyone, even to saints, even to Mary and Jesus. Like Credo points out, God, in His goodness, instead of turning away, with our free will is able to draw our suffering into His plan and work our good out of it.

I always found it frustrating to be faced with the problem of suffering and have no answer. There's nothing written anywhere that will make it understandable or bearable. It reminds me of the book of Job where they spend chapters agonizing over his suffering and the problem of pain, and finally at the end God enters and basically says you can't understand. Frustrating, right? At least to me. I found it challenging to Faith. Funny enough when I finally accepted I won't understand... that's when I started to understand. As cliche as it sounds, really the answer is Christ... the relationship of God with us, suffering with us, loving us. Eh, it's hard to explain. I don't understand it myself, it has to be lived and that's something I'm still working on. 

20 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

 I don't believe God crys when I cry or is sad when I'm sad. I believe there could be times where this is the case, but I don't believe God is always like this and I'm happy He's not. It shows He is a Personal Being.  

 

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? It sounds to me as if you are saying he's indifferent to our suffering, but I don't think that's what you mean. I think God truly does suffer when we suffer. If He is perfect, infinte love, how can He not? 

[Spem in alium]

22 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

I believe God both ordains certain sufferings and permits certain sufferings. I don't view Him as evil or bad for doing so (Ecclesiasticus 11:14, Hebrews 12:6). He knows best (Isa 55:9). I don't believe God crys when I cry or is sad when I'm sad. I believe there could be times where this is the case, but I don't believe God is always like this and I'm happy He's not. It shows He is a Personal Being.  

 

Yes, God does permit suffering. It seems to me this, for the most part, comes down to free will. If God intervened and prevented us from making a choice which would cause us to suffer eventually, He compromises our free will, which is an innate part of us. I believe most of the suffering caused in this world is not by God's hand, but by the free decisions of people.

I understand what you mean. God is a Personal Being, and with His own Will - He doesn't just mindlessly feel what we feel. Though at particular times in my life, I really have felt God showing me how close He is to my suffering. And we have examples of God suffering with us, particularly His groaning with loss in Isaiah, and Jesus weeping by Lazarus's tomb. I don't think God is always sad when I'm sad, but He understands my sadness. But in cases of suffering, of whatever kind, I think He also suffers - because of His presence in our souls, of His dwelling within us, and because of the Incarnation. All of these are a choice on God's part - God doesn't just live in us by chance, the Incarnation didn't happen by accident. They are specific ways of becoming closer to us and bringing us closer to Him. God chose to become man, which meant He would experience suffering. He understands what it is for humans to suffer, and suffer greatly, and this makes Him able to truly know our own suffering.

[Credo in Deum]

4 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

 

My understanding is both of these are true- and they don't contradict each other. Suffering, like sin and death, wasn't created by God *per se*, like Spem writes. He doesn't take delight in the suffering of a righteous man or when a sinner perishes. (There is a bible quote on that... but I am to lazy to look it up  ) However, sin, death, suffering, happens to everyone, even to saints, even to Mary and Jesus. Like Credo points out, God, in His goodness, instead of turning away, with our free will is able to draw our suffering into His plan and work our good out of it.

I always found it frustrating to be faced with the problem of suffering and have no answer. There's nothing written anywhere that will make it understandable or bearable. It reminds me of the book of Job where they spend chapters agonizing over his suffering and the problem of pain, and finally at the end God enters and basically says you can't understand. Frustrating, right? At least to me. I found it challenging to Faith. Funny enough when I finally accepted I won't understand... that's when I started to understand. As cliche as it sounds, really the answer is Christ... the relationship of God with us, suffering with us, loving us. Eh, it's hard to explain. I don't understand it myself, it has to be lived and that's something I'm still working on. 

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? It sounds to me as if you are saying he's indifferent to our suffering, but I don't think that's what you mean. I think God truly does suffer when we suffer. If He is perfect, infinte love, how can He not? 

I do not believe God is indifferent, and I don't believe our emotions are always rational. Like children we can throw tantrums, cry, and be sad for stupid reasons. I believe this is the case for the majority of our problems.  I've seen people become sad over the weather! The weather should never cause us sadness since the weather is ordained by God and is therefore perfect.  In fact as a Christian there is very little to be sad about when we understand how God is actively present in all things and if we are to take all things as coming from His Divine Hand,  except sin of course.  

Our entire purpose in this life is unity with the Divine Will. When my will is in conformity with His, then I believe we are suffering together, crying together, etc.  When my will is not in conformity with God I believe He expresses pitty, mercy, or anger.

The best book I've ever read on the subject of suffering is this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Heliotropium-Conformity-Human-Will-Divine/dp/0895552450

This book will turn your life upside down.  It made me realize how little I know about our God. He's neither an arse portal or Barney the Dinosaur.
 

[veritasluxmea]

40 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

I do not believe God is indifferent, and I don't believe our emotions are always rational. Like children we can throw tantrums, cry, and be sad for stupid reasons. I believe this is the case for the majority of our problems.  I've seen people become sad over the weather! The weather should never cause us sadness since the weather is ordained by God and is therefore perfect.  In fact as a Christian there is very little to be sad about when we understand how God is actively present in all things and if we are to take all things as coming from His Divine Hand,  except sin of course.  

Our entire purpose in this life is unity with the Divine Will. When my will is in conformity with His, then I believe we are suffering together, crying together, etc.  When my will is not in conformity with God I believe He expresses pitty, mercy, or anger.

The best book I've ever read on the subject of suffering is this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Heliotropium-Conformity-Human-Will-Divine/dp/0895552450

This book will turn your life upside down.  It made me realize how little I know about our God. He's neither an arse portal or Barney the Dinosaur.
 

I'm talking about actual suffering, not just "feeling bad." Like... having your three year old drown in your backyard pool, or your bother dying in a car accident, or what ISIS is inflicting on people in the Middle East. I agree that being sad about the weather doesn't count as suffering, but that's not what I'm talking about. 

I am cautious about the idea that everything- every single detail and working in the world- is directly ordained by God. I think most things just are the natural result and consequence of our choices in the world. Even the weather is sometimes affected by human activity, like in the case of cloud seeding.

I remember a while back there was a recall on some model of car that was manufactured incorrectly. The steering wheel was locking or something and it directly caused multiple deaths. I think that's an example of human error in a fallen world leading to suffering. Same with rape, war, and the like- none of those are God's will. I stand by what I said in my post. God doesn't delight in our suffering, but His is able to work in it. 

Edited June 23, 2016 by veritasluxmea

[Credo in Deum]

1 hour ago, veritasluxmea said:

I'm talking about actual suffering, not just "feeling bad." Like... having your three year old drown in your backyard pool, or your bother dying in a car accident, or what ISIS is inflicting on people in the Middle East. I agree that being sad about the weather doesn't count as suffering, but that's not what I'm talking about. 

I am cautious about the idea that everything- every single detail and working in the world- is directly ordained by God. I think most things just are the natural result and consequence of our choices in the world. Even the weather is sometimes affected by human activity, like in the case of cloud seeding.

I remember a while back there was a recall on some model of car that was manufactured incorrectly. The steering wheel was locking or something and it directly caused multiple deaths. I think that's an example of human error in a fallen world leading to suffering. Same with rape, war, and the like- none of those are God's will. I stand by what I said in my post. God doesn't delight in our suffering, but His is able to work in it. 

See I believe everything is in God's control. All things. As Christ said to Pilate: "You have no power except what is given to you from above." Our mistake is thinking God just sits back and let's things happen when that is not the case at all.