The Ultimate Super-sized XXL Marriage Thread Plus

[Gabriela]

I just want to remind everyone:

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

If the Church forbids participation/attendance, then it doesn't matter what it would do to the relationship. Christ's Truth must come first.

That being said, yesterday, after stepping away from these marriage threads for a while, I realized what was bothering me so much about them. When I was in Israel, I was surprised that people from different social classes and of very different political opinions were often close friends. There, if someone disapproves of another's lifestyle or behavior, one says it, and maybe they argue about it, but people respect others' rights to their principles and don't take personal offense. Americans find other people's principles personally offensive, and that's extremely selfish.

If I invited a Jew to my house for dinner and didn't know Jews don't eat pork, and the Jew refused to eat the pork chops I made for dinner, I wouldn't take personal offense. In fact, I have accidentally cooked chicken in wine for a Muslim, because I momentarily forgot about the alcohol thing, and we remained friends. Because I'm secure in my own principles and have no guilt or doubt about them, I don't take offense when other people disapprove of them. That's their belief, and if they act in accord with it, I have nothing but respect for their insistence upon living according to their principles.

So that's the real problem here: Any family member who would cut you off or even take personal offense because you are acting according to your principles is acting like a selfish child who's insecure about their own choices, behavior, lifestyle, etc. A mature person can handle others disagreeing with them, and has nothing but respect for others' living in accordance with their consciences. It's a tyrant who insists that everyone approve of their actions, or else anathema sit.

We know liberalism is like this: If you don't tolerate everything we do, then we will not tolerate you. It's pure hypocrisy. And in relationship with such persons, be they father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters, it is better to "hate" them than to abandon one's own principles—even one's own Lord.

[Gabriela]

Fr. Robert Barron has a video called "On the Limits of Tolerance", which explains the important difference between tolerance and love. I tried to embed it but get a 403 error. Y'all should google it. It's a good video.

@dUSt: Fix this?

 

 

[iamnormal]

Gosh, all these marriage posts.  It is clear that there is a huge gulf between knowing what marriage is from reading books and knowing what marriage is from actually being married, for real. I know many "former" Catholics who are in long-term, faithful marriages with children.  As far as I know they have every intention of remaining faithful and married for life.  They weren't married in the Church though.  To make a black and white statement that these are fake marriages and that recognizing them is a lie reflects so poorly on the Catholic Church.  There really are gray areas and the broader one's experience the more this becomes evident.  I could imagine showing this thread to some of these former Catholics and hearing that this kind of thing is exactly why the Church means nothing to them anymore.

To the original poster, ultimately it is your sister's marriage.  You don't need to make judgments about it where these (judgements) are not called for.  IF you can't go or stand up for her in good conscience, then don't do it.  But, respect that from her perspective, even though she isn't getting married according to canonical form, she likely intends what marriage really is (permanence, openness to children).  Canonical form wasn't always required anyway so there were loads of Catholics in the history of the Church who got married according to the custom of their time.  She may find her way back to the Church, but calling her marriage fake and a lie, especially if she really means it when she gets married, is unlikely to make her look favorably on the Church.  I know some people don't care about this, but it really is wrong to turn the Church into one's own personal cudgel. 

[Maggyie]

Well that's the thing, what best serves Christ's truth? The Church doesn't expressly forbid attending any events, although it's pretty obvious in certain cases we shouldn't. The relationships do matter because relationships are how the Gospel is spread. 

[Anomaly]

Gabriela, 

No need to be an ass.   Accidentally cooking wine isn't even close to not attending a sibling's wedding.  Nihil's situation, since he is a healthy and independent adult, is much different than Ice's situation with her sister.   A first marriage is different than a divorced couple remarrying.  Etc.  

There are extenuating circumstances.   There is also considering how things are done and communicated.  It's easy if you're some self righteous sociopathic fanatic.  It's not easy or clear if you're not.   I don't think society in Isreal is the epitome of social tolerance and co existence.  

Edited June 19, 2016 by Anomaly

[Guest]

I wouldn't go. Hell is full of people who tried to avoid conflict and not rock the boat. I used to think hell wasn't going to be very crowded. My mind has changed drastically. Very few people will probably be saved. Hell will be filled to the brim with lukewarm Catholics/ Christians who have no idea of the words Jesus spoke and were never born again and repented of their sins. God is going to spit them all out just like he said he would in Revelations. And that's not even getting to all the people who refuse to enter the Church and get Baptized. If I make it to Heaven I will delight in God's justice and rejoice that hell last forever and there will be not a single hope of the damned getting released. I hope to even be able to glance on them in hell from time to time so I can praise God that he gave us freewill and we were free to choose where we ended up. That has to be one of the greatest sufferings of hell. Knowing you are there 100 percent because of your own fault and that you could of ended up in Heaven. God tried and tried and tried to reach out to you and you rejected him all of your days. Now you are forever in darkness and the gnashing of teeth will never end for all of eternity.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Guest

[Sponsa-Christi]

4 hours ago, Gabriela said:

So that's the real problem here: Any family member who would cut you off or even take personal offense because you are acting according to your principles is acting like a selfish child who's insecure about their own choices, behavior, lifestyle, etc. A mature person can handle others disagreeing with them, and has nothing but respect for others' living in accordance with their consciences. It's a tyrant who insists that everyone approve of their actions, or else anathema sit.

I'd agree with this. I can understand family members being upset, disappointed, or sad, but it seems like mature people who love each other should be able to respect each other's consciences. 

If a "conscientious objector" says to a family member planning an invalid wedding something like: "I'm so sorry to disappoint you, but in conscience I can't attend your wedding, but of course I love you and I do want to be a part of your life otherwise"; and the family member responds with: "Either come to my wedding or I'll never speak to you again!"....then if someone is responsible for tearing apart the family, it's NOT the conscientious objector.

4 hours ago, iamnormal said:

Canonical form wasn't always required anyway so there were loads of Catholics in the history of the Church who got married according to the custom of their time.

Canonical form (i.e., "marrying in the Church") wasn't always required, but it is required now. So this brings us back to the question of whether or not we believe the Church has the right and/or ability to make binding marriage laws or to determine whether or not a specific act is a sacrament. 

4 hours ago, Maggyie said:

Well that's the thing, what best serves Christ's truth? The Church doesn't expressly forbid attending any events, although it's pretty obvious in certain cases we shouldn't. The relationships do matter because relationships are how the Gospel is spread. 

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do in their specific situation, but I do wonder how "evangelical" attending an invalid wedding really is. I know the thought is that keeping relationships friendly might make someone more likely to return to the Church in the future, but I question how often it actually happens this way.

My fear in attending an invalid wedding is that the message being communicated isn't so much of one of "the Church is a loving place"; as much as it is one of "Ehhh...I guess the Church's teachings really aren't all THAT important after all...not as important as avoiding arguments, anyway..." 

I wonder if communicating: "I actually do believe what the Church teaches, and my faith is more important to me than absolutely anything else" might be the more effective evangelical message in the long run, even if it comes at the expense of a lot of pain and family strife in the short term. 

[Gabriela]

49 minutes ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

My fear in attending an invalid wedding is that the message being communicated isn't so much of one of "the Church is a loving place"; as much as it is one of "Ehhh...I guess the Church's teachings really aren't all THAT important after all...not as important as avoiding arguments, anyway..." 

I wonder if communicating: "I actually do believe what the Church teaches, and my faith is more important to me than absolutely anything else" might be the more effective evangelical message in the long run, even if it comes at the expense of a lot of pain and family strife in the short term. 

Exactly. I was going to add this, but I figured my post was already "tl;dr".

Someone who is invalidly married and who later considers religion may go either way: They remember the person who didn't attend their wedding because of their religious beliefs and think, "Well, that was a jerk thing to do, so I definitely don't want THAT person's religion", or else they may remember the person who didn't attend their wedding because of their religious beliefs and think, "Hm, that person believed so strongly that they were willing to sacrifice our relationship for their faith. What's so great about their faith that they'd do that?"

Probably most people will think the former, but that's the kind of person who's seeking a feel-good, approve-all, upset-nobody religion. That's someone who's not very far along in the journey of faith. Someone who's humble and honest enough to think the latter is much more likely to check out the Catholic Church, and even the person in the former scenario may (hopefully!) get to the level of maturity that they'd be able to see that the non-attender wasn't the jerk in the wedding situation, and then, eventually, may consider the Catholic Church—or at least come to understand why the person didn't attend.

It's not "evangelical" to violate Church teaching so you can be seen at an illicit wedding. In that case, what you've done is keep your mouth shut about the Faith. It's more "evangelical" to explain the Church teaching, because then you're sharing it, and if you also act on it, you witness to the importance and sanctity of that teaching. How the other person responds is up to them. They can be adult and respectful about it, or childish and tyrannical. But that's on them, not you.

I'd like to make clear that I say this as someone with several gay friends, of varying degrees of closeness—one extremely close—who know that I am a faithful, traditionalist Catholic who believes with the Church in all things. They are open-minded and secure enough in their beliefs to accept mine, even when mine condemn their choices. I have also lost gay friends when they asked what I believe about homosexuality. But I didn't lose them because I insulted them. I explained that I love them dearly and wish them only the best in life, but that I can't condone their lifestyle choice as moral (or mine either, in many ways). They then cut off the relationship, because I was "being intolerant". They couldn't see the hypocrisy in that. I wanted to go on loving them and serving them and being there for them, despite our differences. They wanted me out of their lives because I was different. I hope that, today, they've recognized their hypocrisy and are sorry, but I can't know that, and it makes me sad to have lost them.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Gabriela

[beatitude]

I think this is a really difficult decision to have to make. Ice, you have my prayers.

I can see how anxiety and depression might make it difficult for you to speak to your sister in person, but it seems that a.) you have a good relationship with your sister and b.) you express yourself well in writing. Could you write her a note explaining your dilemma? From what you've said about her wanting the marriage to be blessed later, it's not that she's hostile to the idea of a sacramental wedding, she just doesn't grasp its importance. If she doesn't object to the idea of one in principle, she might well agree to have a Catholic ceremony as part of her celebrations.

You've put yourself gently in your opening post and I'm sure you could do this in a kindhearted way, even though your anxiety might make it seem a daunting prospect. I can see why you're worried about hurting the relationship, but it sounds as though you and your sister are close enough for her to want to know if you're unhappy. To put it another way: if the shoe were on the other foot, and you were doing something that put your sister in an uncomfortable and awkward position that was making her this stressed, wouldn't you want her to tell you? Would you be angry at her if she did?

I will pray for you, for a long and happy marriage for your sister and her fiance, and for this situation to be resolved easily.

[Maggyie]

That's the thing. It's not a "violation of Church teaching" to attend an invalid wedding. There is no teaching or canon law or anything laying down a strict guideline about this. Each person has to decide for themselves, applying discernment and common sense. I repeat, there is no teaching about attending weddings, unless someone can show me where it is written.

[Guest]

 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

Quote

 

 

 

EWTN - "Attending Weddings"

"As for the different answers you've seen on the issue: Many orthodox Catholics (including priests and religious) presume that the Church does explicitly forbid Catholics to attend such marriages. They are simply mistaken. Others, unfortunately, do not distinguish Church teaching from their own personal opinion on the issue and give their personal opinion as binding on the consciences of others. We can only hope that they too are sincerely mistaken."

Michelle Arnold
Catholic Answers

 

 

 

Each person must make up their own minds on whether to attend or not and then take personal responsibility for their decision - hopefully and ideally after research and consulting a priest/spiritual director.  The latter do not command, they advise and ideally will ensure that the person they are advising is informed in accord with what The Church has to say  Nor very often are others outside the situation aware of the circumstances and context of a decision, nor of what one may have said to the marrying couple - or not said......and again a personal decision (personal responsibility and accountability accepted) all things taken into account.

 Others do not have the right to attempt to bind the conscience of others (certainly not to judge others and contrary to what Christ has commanded) - especially if such an attempt to bind is not Church teaching at all.  They are merely acting on their own personal opinion, to which they have every right - but not to state their personal opinion as Church teaching if it is not so.

Edited June 19, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Gabriela said:

Any family member who would cut you off or even take personal offense because you are acting according to your principles is acting like a selfish child who's insecure about their own choices, behavior, lifestyle, etc. A mature person can handle others disagreeing with them, and has nothing but respect for others' living in accordance with their consciences. It's a tyrant who insists that everyone approve of their actions, or else anathema sit.

Judgement call with sweeping generalisations.

No reference whatsoever to circumstances.

 

Quote

A mature person can handle others disagreeing with them, and has nothing but respect for others' living in accordance with their consciences. It's a tyrant who insists that everyone approve of their actions, or else anathema sit.It's a tyrant who insists that everyone approve of their actions, or else anathema sit

Precisely!  ...........Projection?  

Insisting that another approve of their personal concept (contrary to what The Church has to state) else they are anathema sit.  Insisting that others abandon what they have decided in conscience in accord with The Church and take up the contrary personal concept only and personal decision only of another, which might be to spread a teaching contrary to The Church.

If another Catholic should decide not to attend a wedding for reasons of conscience, I respect their decision and humbly would hope they would respect mine.  I would be aware I do not know the full circumstances of another as they do not know fully my own.  Both of us would be in accord with what The Church states providing we have made every effort to rightly inform our consciences.

"Do what you can, leave the rest to God" (St Mary of The Cross MacKillop)
 

 

Edited June 20, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

Thanks for the replies.I'm on my kindle so I can't reply in depth, but I will say its not an issue of protesting or proving a point. Its a matter of trying to do the right thing. Additionally my family is pretty close and not big on holding a grudge. I don't believe it would absolutely destroy relationships but I'm not naive to the possibility that it might.

I'm going to try to muster up the courage to contact a priest to talk to and I'll try to bring it up with my therapist when I see her in a few weeks. I might even broach the subject with my mother but not sure how she'll react. Thanks again.

Good decision, IN.  Prayers for your journey in the unfolding.

6 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

If a "conscientious objector" says ..........

It can be that real trap in life: "What if, what if, what if........".......... Of course, it is not always a trap in that one needs to weigh up likely consequences of an action at times.

The result of attendance or non-attendance at a marriage for reasons of conscience can have any result whatsoever.  One can speculate on the future, on what might happen/likely outcomes, but it is speculation only - not fact.  One does what one can at the time (in accord with what The Church states hopefully) and with all things taken into consideration including possibly quite personal knowledge of circumstances - and then must leave the result to God and with Peaceful absolute trust and confidence in Him no matter outcome and result.

[Norseman82]

3 hours ago, Maggyie said:

That's the thing. It's not a "violation of Church teaching" to attend an invalid wedding. There is no teaching or canon law or anything laying down a strict guideline about this. Each person has to decide for themselves, applying discernment and common sense. I repeat, there is no teaching about attending weddings, unless someone can show me where it is written.

As I pointed out in Nihil's thread, a version of the Baltimore Catechism contained the admonition that we are not to attend weddings of Catholics who were married by non-Catholic ministers, nor should we even give gifts.