The Ultimate Super-sized XXL Marriage Thread Plus

[Spem in alium]

1 hour ago, Gabriela said:

Email your parish office and tell the secretary you need to meet with the priest about an important personal decision regarding family. That's what priests are there for.

I would do this. It's okay if you don't know the priest that well; he is your pastor, and that's part of his job. Plus sometimes it's better to talk it out with someone who doesn't know you well or your family, because they can remain less biased.

[Sponsa-Christi]

30 minutes ago, McM RSCJ said:

I hope you will find peace and even joy in standing up for your sister as she marries.

The problem is, though, if her sister is a Catholic getting married in a non-Catholic ceremony, then her sister is not actually getting married. To be very blunt, it's basically a "fake" wedding in the Church's eyes. A Catholic attending such a wedding needs to consider whether their attendance/participation is participating in what is essentially a lie. 

(Again, being very direct here for the sake of clarity in this discussion...obviously, you want to put things as kindly as possibly when talking to distressed family memebers.)

34 minutes ago, McM RSCJ said:

(And we all--i.e. our human community--are better off when the focus of preparation is on the marriage and not just on the ceremony/party.  .  .  .  Right?) 

This is true, but the problem is that since the ceremony is invalid, so is the marriage. When couples live together after an invalid wedding, they are merely cohabitating (a.k.a. "living in sin") in the Church's eyes. Of course, there are a lot of subjective elements that could make this more or less sinful for some people, but cohabitation in itself is objectively a problem. 

One thought for the OP...is there any way to work out a practical solution here? I.e., if you sister isn't against having a Catholic ceremony for ideological reasons, is there a way to arrange for a very quick, very quiet Catholic wedding either right before or right after the destination wedding? (Or maybe even bring a priest with you to the wedding, or find a local priest willing to do the ceremony?)

Also, for the OP, if you're close with your sister, can you be honest with her about how you feel? Like, can you tell her how much you love her and want to be there for her, but that your faith is really important to you and your conscience is troubled? If your sister knows all of what you're feeling, maybe she would be willing either to accommodate your potential non-attendance, or else work towards regularizing the wedding/marriage in a way that would ease your conscience. 

[little2add]

1 hour ago, Gabriela said:

But that's not what you said. You said she's disrespecting her sister and implied, completely without grounds, that she would disrespect her sister's children as well.

There's a legitimate concern here that a faithful Catholic may be seen to approve of something that the Church forbids. It's clear from Ice's OP that she does embrace her sister and wish her well—if she didn't, why would this situation pain her so much? But even if you can't see that clearly in the OP, then you ought, out of Christian charity, to assume that Ice embraces her and wishes her well. The question concerns complicity in sin, which is valid and important and worthy of YOUR respect. If not attending is what the Church demands—and that is what Ice is asking—then it matters little whose feelings it would hurt. We cannot be seen to condone sin. Does attending condone sin? Ice would like to know.

So all I'm saying is: The question is a perfectly valid one, and your response was unkind.

truth hurts.  

personally 

i would not miss my sisters wedding under any circumstances 

[Maggyie]

8 minutes ago, little2add said:

truth hurts.  

personally 

i would not miss my sisters wedding under any circumstances 

Even if she was marrying 3 women in a Satanic wedding ceremony?

[little2add]

now your just being silly

 

i respect my sister, she is an adult and raised in a catholic household.  she can make her own decisions

i trust that they will be right, thats right i trust 

we are talking about an adult, aren't we?

more important we are talking...

[dUSt]

If I was in your shoes I'd tell my sister why I couldn't stand up in the wedding, but will be there in attendance to support her as my sister (not the ceremony).

[CatherineM]

Hard to have urgency when it's been going on for decades. It's a huge issue that has been ignored too long. The fact that he's voiced it is huge. 

[Guest]

Both my sons married in civil ceremonies.  I attended both weddings....... deciding not to pick up a stone.  And a huge stone and insult it would have been.  Their marriage was one of the happiest day of their lives.  This was very obvious and I wasn't going to spoil it by their mother not attending and run the risk of alienating them.  Even though a civil ceremony is not recognised by The Church as a valid marriage, to my sons and their wives they are indeed married.  In the final analysis, in all things, God alone is Judge.

 Life moves on (my prayer for my sons and their wives with it) and perhaps at some point ahead they will change their thinking - perhaps I might find ahead something helpful and inspirational to say to them (Grace).  And that is my hope and prayer. 

[Sponsa-Christi]

39 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Even though a civil ceremony is not recognised by The Church as a valid marriage, to my sons and their wives they are indeed married.

So, are your sons better judges of what is a valid marriage than the Church herself? 

I'm really not saying this to be mean, and certainly not to make a personal judgement about your choices---I know you had nuances to take into account that I naturally know nothing about.

But I'm seeing a lot of this kind of thinking in the recent wedding threads. We have to ask ourselves: do we believe that the Church has the authority to make binding laws about marriage? Or to tell us authoritatively what is and is not a sacrament? Or are the personal feelings of non-disinterested individuals a better guide to discerning marriage validity and/or the presence of a sacrament?

Edited June 19, 2016 by Sponsa-Christi

[Sponsa-Christi]

1 hour ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

So, are your sons better judges of what is a valid marriage than the Church herself? 

Ok, I just re-read this, and I really hope this didn't come off as rude.

It was not my intention to be mean, but I don't think that arguing: "this marriage may not be valid in they eyes of the Church, but it's a real marriage to my [friend/sibling/relative/children]" makes much sense, UNLESS you're trying to argue that the Church doesn't really have the authority she says she does. 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Sponsa-Christi

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

Ok, I just re-read this, and I really hope this didn't come off as rude.

It was not my intention to be mean, but I don't think that arguing: "this marriage may not be valid in they eyes of the Church, but it's a real marriage to my [friend/sibling/relative/children]" makes much sense, UNLESS you're trying to argue that the Church doesn't really have the authority she says she does. 

No offence.

Not in any way stating that an invalid marriage in the eyes of The Church does not matter because it does and I am very much aware of this.  Taking things from the perspective of my sons and their wives, they consider they are married and my perspective does not come into it.  I respect what they believe, just as they respect my beliefs. 

2 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

you had nuances to take into account that I naturally know nothing about

Correct, their decision for a civil marriage was not isolated, rather made in a context as was my decision to attend.

Validity/Sacramental Marriage did not come into my posts - or I did not mean it to do so..........other than the statement that my prayers for a change of heart and thought in the future would indicate, I had hoped, where my own heart and mind rests.

Edited June 19, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

 

Quote

 

EWTN:

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showresult.asp?RecNum=573287&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2002&Author=&Keyword=&pgnu=4&groupnum=35&record_bookmark=8918

 

 

Quote

 

Catholic Answers - Michelle Arnold (Apologist)

http://www.catholic.com/blog/michelle-arnold/to-attend-or-not-to-attend

 

 

[HisChildForever]

My brother has been a non-practicing Catholic for almost ten years. I would consider him agnostic and nearly hostile to organized religion. His bride was raised with no faith and is agnostic at best. They married last year in a civil ceremony, and I was the MOH. I need to be an active force in their lives, a constant reminder of the joy, happiness, and love a life in Jesus offers. I also have (and had) absolutely no desire to rip family apart or cause the kind of damage that lasts decades. The thought never crossed my mind to say "no" or to refuse attendance. She was my MOH four months before, and was in the physical presence of Christ. I pray that day happens again. But if I "protested" the wedding? Not a chance.

[Ice_nine]

Thanks for the replies.I'm on my kindle so I can't reply in depth, but I will say its not an issue of protesting or proving a point. Its a matter of trying to do the right thing. Additionally my family is pretty close and not big on holding a grudge. I don't believe it would absolutely destroy relationships but I'm not naive to the possibility that it might.

I'm going to try to muster up the courage to contact a priest to talk to and I'll try to bring it up with my therapist when I see her in a few weeks. I might even broach the subject with my mother but not sure how she'll react. Thanks again.

[Guest]

One of my sons wanted a civil marriage here in Bethany - I declined and advised why.  Both my son and his wife appreciated my reasons.  I did attend their wedding however.  As stated previously, they respect my beliefs, and I respect theirs.