The Ultimate Super-sized XXL Marriage Thread Plus

[Sponsa-Christi]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

I am not sure if Church approval / non-approval really has any bearing on whether there is a sacramental marriage as far as God is concerned.

From what I understand, the requirement for Church approval has not existed in all points in time. But I don't think that God's requirements for a sacrament can vary with time.

Here, you're actually touching on much, MUCH larger questions of the nature of the Church's authority. I.e., does the Church really have the authority to "bind and loose" the way Christ told St. Peter the Church would? 

1 hour ago, Peace said:

Take the annulment process as another example.  Are these determinations infallible? I do not think so. Plenty of dioceses in the USA hand out annulments like they are candy.  You could have the same exact couple. The same exact set of circumstances.  The husband asks for an annulment in Poland and is denied. A person under identical circumstances asks for an annulment in Florida and has it granted. Now, if the circumstances are exactly the same, how can there be a valid marriage in the eyes of God in one circumstance, but not in another circumstance, because of the personal whims of the particular priests who preside over the annulment process in each country?

First, in all honesty, despite some possible abuses in the past, I really don't think that declarations of nullity are "handed out like candy" today in general. Obviously, there could be a few wacky tribunals out there, but if such places exist I don't think they would be representative of the vast majority of tribunals, even in the U.S.A.

Also, a case can't be tried twice on the same grounds (unless it's part of an appeals process, which is different). So it's not like a couple can try their case in Poland, get a negative answer, move to Florida, and then try their case there and get the answer they were looking for.

If, hypothetically, one tribunal would grant an "annulment" for a case that would have gotten a negative verdict in another tribunal---well, one of those tribunals would be wrong! (Which could be due either to laxity and a misguided desire to be "pastoral,"; OR tribunal personnel not putting enough effort into proving an invalid marriage is indeed invalid.) But again, since a case can't be tried on the same grounds twice, this is purely hypothetical. 

[Nihil Obstat]

39 minutes ago, Amppax said:

It's interesting that a lot of people are saying go to the reception if you don't feel comfortable going to the ceremony. Personally, I would go to both or neither (unless there was some other sort of extenuating circumstance). It just seems rude to me to skip the ceremony, but then show up for the party. 

I don't have any other advice, but you and your family will be in my prayers, Nihil. 

Yes, that is my general feeling on the issue. I am assuming I will neither be attending nor welcome, but if prompted I will go to the reception.

35 minutes ago, Luigi said:

To quote an aunt of mine, "Go! And give them a rosary for a wedding present!" 

I neglected to mention the second part of my intention, which is to give a gift of "the most obnoxiously Catholic sort" I can think of. After all, this family member is Catholic. Whether they like it or not. I am leaning towards a beautiful and classic image of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Thank you for reminding me, because I have to order it soon or else it will not be here in time.

[franciscanheart]

1 hour ago, dUSt said:

A civil marriage could be a first step in a journey that leads closer to the truth, while a polygamous marriage is a step in the opposite direction. 

So as long as there exists potential for the couple to move closer to truth, you'll attend? That makes sense, I guess.

[Nihil Obstat]

If anybody would like to join me in a day of the novena, which began Sunday and which concludes on Monday (I believe I miscounted earlier and said Tuesday, but Monday is the ninth day of prayer), here is the text. I wrote the first and third paragraphs. The second and fourth are from the collects for the Masses of Sts. Augustine and Monica respectively. My asking for the intercession of Fr. Kenneth Walker is of course a private addition as he is not beatified. Only one way to make that happen.

 

Oh holy St. Augustine, prompted by the ceaseless prayers of your mother and the pull of divine grace on your heart, you left behind a life of iniquity, and became a holy bishop and Doctor of the Church. We ask you to intercede for us, as your mother did for you, to draw away from sin and into the merciful arms of Our Lord Jesus Christ: A, B, C, and D. We beg that their hearts be opened to repentance as yours was, that they may submit themselves to the true and merciful teachings of our Holy Mother the Church.

Give heed, O almighty God, to our humble prayers, and since Thou givest us confident assurance in Thy loving kindness, deign to grant us, through the intercession of blessed Augustine, Thy Confessor and Bishop, the effect of Thy wonted mercy. Through our Lord Jesus Christ, thy Son, who with Thee liveth and reigneth in the unity of the Holy Ghost, world without end, Amen.

Oh holy St. Monica, you spent years in sorrow and prayer for the sake of your son Augustine’s conversion. Our Lord heard your prayers and in His mercy and grace drew your son out of sin, into the shelter of His Holy Church, even raising him to the office of bishop and the honour of Doctor of the Church. We ask that as you prayed for Augustine, you also pray for A, B, C, and D, that they turn away from sin and believe in the Holy Gospel.

O God, Comforter of the sorrowful and salvation of them that hope in Thee, who didst mercifully receive the devoted tears of blessed Monica for the conversion of her son Augustine: enable us through their joint intercession to bewail our sins and to find merciful grace from Thee. Through our Lord Jesus Christ, thy Son, who with Thee liveth and reigneth in the unity of the Holy Ghost, world without end, Amen.

PATER NOSTER, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.

AVE MARIA, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

GLORIA PATRI, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto. Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.

 

Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us. (x3)

Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

St. Augustine, pray for us.

St. Monica, pray for us.

Father Kenneth Walker, pray for us.

[Sponsa-Christi]

2 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I neglected to mention the second part of my intention, which is to give a gift of "the most obnoxiously Catholic sort" I can think of. After all, this family member is Catholic. Whether they like it or not. I am leaning towards a beautiful and classic image of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Thank you for reminding me, because I have to order it soon or else it will not be here in time.

I'd recommend a nice image of the Last Supper for their kitchen. In many cultures, it's customary to have this image in your kitchen, so you have plausible deniability about intentionally being obnoxiously Catholic! ("What? It's a housewarming gift of a traditional kitchen decoration!") 

[Nihil Obstat]

1 minute ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

I'd recommend a nice image of the Last Supper for their kitchen. In many cultures, it's customary to have this image in your kitchen, so you have plausible deniability about intentionally being obnoxiously Catholic! ("What? It's a housewarming gift of a traditional kitchen decoration!") 

Also an option. But my mischievous side is coming out with the gift. I am not sure I want plausible deniability.  

On that note, does anyone know where one might buy printed and professionally bound copies of encyclicals such as, just as an example, Casti Connubi, or Arcanum Divinae?  

[Norseman82]

I recall seeing an old version of the Baltimore Catechism that stated that not only are we to not attend, but we also are not to give gifts. 

It was asked what Nihil hopes to accomplish.  I think the first thing that he is trying to accomplish is simply not sinning.  I do not know all the dynamics of Nihil's family or if they are practicing Catholics, but this approach may be one to take.

Nihil, if it is any consolation, if you earn the enmity of your family, know that Christ predicted that following Him would cause family divisions (the part where Jesus said that He came to bring division and not peace).

[Nihil Obstat]

4 minutes ago, Norseman82 said:

I recall seeing an old version of the Baltimore Catechism that stated that not only are we to not attend, but we also are not to give gifts. 

It was asked what Nihil hopes to accomplish.  I think the first thing that he is trying to accomplish is simply not sinning.  I do not know all the dynamics of Nihil's family or if they are practicing Catholics, but this approach may be one to take.

Nihil, if it is any consolation, if you earn the enmity of your family, know that Christ predicted that following Him would cause family divisions (the part where Jesus said that He came to bring division and not peace).

In general I would be more than happy to agree on no gifts, but something especially Catholic is more like throwing a life jacket to someone who is drowning.  

[Norseman82]

4 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

In general I would be more than happy to agree on no gifts, but something especially Catholic is more like throwing a life jacket to someone who is drowning.

True, if you do give a gift, give a Catholic gift that could tug at their conscience.  Here is another prayer that may help:

http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=2453

 

 

[little2add]

12 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

No.  Your attendance is an endorsement of their union and a participation in it.  If the circumstance for their wedding is sinful then you cannot endorse or participate, regardless of if it is your family or friends.  It is not selfish to not attend. In fact it's the opposite.  It is the abandonment of your will to do God's will.  

selfish and a prude, you may be.     if two people decide to get married as opposed to shacking up its a good thing for the couple.    its not about you

if there friends or family then celebrate with them

Edited June 17, 2016 by little2add

[Anomaly]

4 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Yes, that is my general feeling on the issue. I am assuming I will neither be attending nor welcome, but if prompted I will go to the reception.

I neglected to mention the second part of my intention, which is to give a gift of "the most obnoxiously Catholic sort" I can think of. After all, this family member is Catholic. Whether they like it or not. I am leaning towards a beautiful and classic image of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Thank you for reminding me, because I have to order it soon or else it will not be here in time.

Giving a purposely "obnoxiously Catholic" gift.  That sounds positive.   

Why don't you really put yourself out there?   Write them a nice letter and wish them joy, love, and happiness in their future.  Wish them the joy of God's love and offer to be both a temporal and spiritual advocate if they ever wish to to have their marriage and life choices approved by God, the Catholic Church.

Or just be a passive aggressive slontze and give them a bound copy of an encyclical.  

Pretty much what I saw coming.  You created a post so you could demonstrate how knowledgable you are and bolster your opinion by shooting down any challenge or advice to temper your behavior or action.  You essentially only validated what you had already decided.

My vote would be you just not go to either.  The attendance at the ceremony is to show respect for the ceremony.   The reception is to congratulate for their new life state. You can't do either.  Don't send an obnoxious, condescending, and self righteous "Catholic" gift.   POLITELY and GENTLY explain to those who may ask about your reason for absence.   You don't have to live in the south to understand "bless your heart" is not really a sincere blessing.

I've been in your shoes a number of times when I was a faithful Catholic.  I've had the tables turned on me as an atheist. 

 It's rough when you damage family and friend relationships for religious reasons.  That's your obligation if that is your sincere conscience.  Don't do it in a way that needlessly damages or slams the door on reconciliation or future relations with you, your wife, your family, or even Catholicism. 

[Maggyie]

I would only give the gift if you attend the wedding. Then it can be as elaborately Catholic a gift as possible. Otherwise it just looks very passive aggressive and you'll go down in family history as a legendary clod. 

I mean I can't tell if you were joking about giving them a copy of the marriage encyclicals. Don't do that. To be honest that's not how a man behaves. Give them something nice for their home (like a crucifix) they will hesitate to throw out. If you think they would toss anything, have a set of Masses said for their intention (no passive aggressive intention please) and put the prayer card in the envelope. 

[Guest]

[dUSt]

13 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I forget if I posted this already. I will attend the reception if offered, but I do not believe that will remain an option.

I once attended a Lebanese Christian wedding (it was an offshoot of Eastern Orthodoxy--kind of like what Protestantism is to Catholicism--yet, a valid Eucharist).

Anyway, I was going to say skipping the wedding seemed common. There were literally less than 20 people at the actual wedding, but there were close to 200 people at the reception (and wow, Lebanese folks know how to party! haha)

[vee]

3 hours ago, Anomaly said:

 

Why don't you really put yourself out there?   Write them a nice letter and wish them joy, love, and happiness in their future.  Wish them the joy of God's love and offer to be both a temporal and spiritual advocate if they ever wish to to have their marriage and life choices approved by God, the Catholic Church.

My vote would be you just not go to either.

 It's rough when you damage family and friend relationships for religious reasons.  That's your obligation if that is your sincere conscience.  Don't do it in a way that needlessly damages or slams the door on reconciliation or future relations with you, your wife, your family, or even Catholicism. 

I agree with the above points.

1 hour ago, Maggyie said:

 have a set of Masses said for their intention (no passive aggressive intention please) and put the prayer card in the envelope. 

and with this