The Ultimate Super-sized XXL Marriage Thread Plus

[Ice_nine]

Thanks all for your replies. I've taken them to heart. When I initially wrote the post I was coming off of a 19 hour overnight shift so that sort of affects emotion and such. I feel a little bit better now, and more ready to take the necessary steps to address this. It's just needing to muster up the courage to talk about things.

Honestly, I think if I'm being selfish I would rather die than have this conversation. Not that I'd ever off myself, but if God were to give me the option of dying a noble death, I'd consider it. I feel like my existence hurts people, but my non-existence would be worse. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

@Sponsa-Christi @Gabriela @Credo in DeumI hate to be that person to say "wah this is MY thread," and normally I don't care about threads going off topic, but as this topic is very personal to me, I don't really want it devolving into a debate about what marriages are real vs. valid and annulments and all of these other theoretical things that matter very little when the situation hits close to home.

I am acutely aware on the passages of the gospel about religion vs. family and taking up your cross and being hated for following Christ. Bringing them up to argue amongst yourselves about ethics is not helpful to me really. And again, I'm going to be selfish but I created this thread because it's hard finding people who share a similar worldview and I needed to discuss it online before taking it to the real world.

I don't mean to single you three out as the "bad apples" of the thread, because your responses have helped too, but I just think it's something to keep in mind when people talk about personal situations about what is a helpful response and what is not. I know there's the temptation to get in an argument about morality, but this is not the place and time. I don't need clarification on what an invalid marriage is. I get it. It's just like rubbing salt in the wound. I know that, because nobody knows my sister, it's easy to have the mental representation of her as being a "modernist/relativist/liberal" but people are more complex and while she espouses (no pun intended) some of these things there's also part of her that sees some of it as crazy. That's why I'm not so offended by the characterization. It's kind of funny how online we can sometimes assume we know more about people than we do. I do it too.

There is a remote possibility that maybe my sister will work something out so that I can in good conscience participate. She and her fiancé are both Catholic, but his attitude is sort of "well we're not practicing so why have a Church wedding, plus it's inconvenient etc" So I don't know. The wedding date is over a year away. That gives me a little breathing room to sort this out. Thanks again everyone for your words and especially your prayers.

[Ice_nine]

On 6/18/2016 at 2:51 PM, Anomaly said:

Ice, 

I don't think it's good for you, or is respectful of your relationship with your sister to boycott the wedding . . .  You should get experienced and competent advice.   Don't expect that from Internet personas.  

I'm worried that it would come off this way. Look, people don't consult me very often, or ever, when making their life decisions. There are very few times I discuss my beliefs because 90% of the time people are not open to it and I don't want to waste oxygen (although when people are open, they can usually respect my more nuanced beliefs more than what they thought I believed). But anyway my point is that I usually keep my mouth shut, unless people ask my opinion. In which case, since I always have an opinion, I'm more than happy to share.

However, asking me to participate or go to a wedding which I essentially believe is not "real" is asking me to bear witness to something. It's about me being honest about what I believe. Acting like nothing is wrong, that doesn't sit well with me. I'm usually a coward, but I can blame minor lapses in everyday life as weakness/anxiety. But I have to sit with this decision for over  a year. I can't tell God "oops flight of the moment decision sorry I didn't stand up for what I believe in because fight-or-flight and . . . sorry).

But good advice otherwise.

On 6/18/2016 at 4:24 PM, little2add said:

truth hurts. 

yep.

On 6/18/2016 at 5:23 PM, dUSt said:

If I was in your shoes I'd tell my sister why I couldn't stand up in the wedding, but will be there in attendance to support her as my sister (not the ceremony).

That seems worse. What bothers me more is I already said I would be her maid of honor. I was kind of put on the spot as it was in front of other people when she asked me (not intentionally so, I think it was just assumed I would say yes). So having to renege on that just makes me feel more like a pos.

On 6/19/2016 at 10:43 AM, Anomaly said:

Gabriela, 

 Nihil's situation, since he is a healthy and independent adult, is much different than Ice's situation with her sister. 

HEY! I'm a semi-independent, sort of healthy adult.

On 6/19/2016 at 4:53 PM, beatitude said:

I think this is a really difficult decision to have to make. Ice, you have my prayers.

You're awe.some

On 6/19/2016 at 9:44 PM, Norseman82 said:

As I pointed out in Nihil's thread, a version of the Baltimore Catechism contained the admonition that we are not to attend weddings of Catholics who were married by non-Catholic ministers, nor should we even give gifts.

Yeah and Church law didn't used to require canonical form for validity. Now she does. If I really wanted to go retro there wouldn't be any conflict here in the first place.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I'm glad to hear that you have a year until the wedding. This gives you more time to pray about it, and more time to talk with your family about the issues. Since you have a year, that gives you time to prepare your sister for the fact that you might not stand up with her at her wedding, and help her understand the reasons why.

This is a really tough situation. To me, it's made even more tough by the fact that, in at least a couple of cases, Jesus broke the "rules" in order to show love. For example, I know that for at least some of us, breaking the law of kosher (as Jesus did when he shared meals with prostitutes) doesn't seem an issue that is close in importance to potentially being viewed as supporting a non-sacramental/invalid marriage. But, in Jesus' time and in his community, keeping kosher was HUGELY important. Even today, orthodox Jews who keep kosher will not eat at a home that doesn't keep kosher, even if it is the home of a family member. And, Jesus was heavily criticized by the Pharisees for breaking the kosher laws.

From my non-Catholic viewpoint, I would at least consider the option that love for your sister trumps the "rules" in this situation. Anyone who knows you knows your beliefs, and you can explain your decision to anyone who asks. This is your sister's WEDDING. One view is that the attention should be focused on the couple, not on your beliefs. Your absence will be noticeable, and may not necessarily make the positive statement about the importance of your beliefs that you intend it to make. It might be different if this was a friend or a distant relative, but this is your SISTER.

I've been trying to think of a similar situation......For example, what would be your response if your sister got pregnant out of wedlock? I can't imagine that you would shun your sister because of this, but would continue to love her and love your new niece or nephew. Your views on having children out of wedlock wouldn't change, but that wouldn't keep you from acting in a loving way.

The reason I decided to post this was not to diss your beliefs and the great difficulties you are facing in figuring out what to do. I simply wanted to express that not standing up for your sister might send the non-Catholics in the congregation a negative message about Catholicism. Sometimes actions that make perfect sense to someone who is well-versed in Catholic theology seem strange, or judgemental, to someone who is not familiar with, or doesn't share these beliefs. As a long-time Phatmass member, I have learned to ask the theological reasoning behind certain actions because it helps the actions make more sense to me. But, I'm not a typical non-Catholic in that way.

As for me, I won't bring this up again, and I will support you and pray for you WHATEVER you decide to do. This decision is ONLY between you and God (and your family), and anyone else who knows you well whose opinion you want to solicit (such as a trusted priest or other spiritual advisor).

<Hugs>

[Guest]

A decision either way could have any result or results whatsoever.  Being involved in the actual circumstances and close relationships with people intimately involved may give the one who is deciding more accurate information than one commenting as a complete outsider, insofar as the potential affect and effect on people actually intimately involved in a situation are concerned. But it would be only ever be "potential effect".  :I "expect the unexpected" whenever I set about anticipating the future/predicting the future.

  I try to be wary too of manipulating or attempting to do so, even with the best of results as the objective of manipulation.   There might also be other results entirely on those outside the circumstances or the 'observers', the community of participating observers outside those intimately involved.  We have no control over these things and manipulations often do not have the results one had hoped to bring about.

In actuality it must be a 'lonely decision' accepting sole responsibility and accountability......seeking wise advice/opinion is always a good move - but advice/opinion is all it can be......

I agree with Ignatius.............

On ‎23‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 8:05 AM, IgnatiusofLoyola said:

I will support you and pray for you WHATEVER you decide to do. This decision is ONLY between you and God (and your family), and anyone else who knows you well whose opinion you want to solicit (such as a trusted priest or other spiritual advisor).

Edited June 24, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Nihil Obstat]

Fallout so far has been bad. Might get worse. But, "I can do all these things in him who strengtheneth me."

[Gabriela]

6 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Fallout so far has been bad. Might get worse. But, "I can do all these things in him who strengtheneth me."

Praying for you, brother.

[Nihil Obstat]

So far this is rather like how sometimes a broken bone has to be re-broken in order to prevent it from healing in a worse condition than before. Hopefully the healing does actually follow the re-breaking. We shall see.

[CatherineM]

It can be hard to tell the emperor that he has no clothes. 

[little2add]

Isn't a unofficial marriage a vast  improvement over living together?  Sure it's not blessed but it is a big step in the right direction.   

There is the real possibility of children born out of wedlock, what about them?

being each other's maid of honor is a presious thing and it would be a shame to not follow your heart.   Not to say that you should bite your  tongue  and not tell her how you feel ...

speak your mind, oviiously you love your sister and what best for her.

Edited June 27, 2016 by little2add

[Guest]

Probably only those who have to make the big decision I.e to attend or not attend are aware of the perhaps quite personal circumstances as to why a child might choose to marry outside The Church.  These circumstances could be many and varied depending on the person getting married for one - and their partner.  If a child chooses to marry outside The Church because they reject their Catholicism outright, might be different from the one who does not.  Why would a person who does not reject his or her Catholicism marry outside The Church ?.......... again the reasons might be many.

Falling in love can be a risky business putting a person in a vulnerable position and falling in love is not a decision of the will, it just happens.  While the result of that falling in love is a decision of one's will (possibly under stress).  I think personally that falling in love is an apt statement.  It is very easy to write that a person should choose their Faith over and above all things - it is another matter entirely when one is actually in a 'damned if I do and damned if I don't' type of situation,faced with the need to choose. For some life is black and white and that can be the easy way at times, while some might need to find their way in the grey where all is murky and unclear, without real clarity to resolve.

Indeed: "Who am I to judge?" anyone else at all.............I have enough problems of my own which will meet Judgement by The Divine Judge, who is all Love and Mercy is our informed Hope. 

Quote

Psalm 51 - Miserere  - http://www.usccb.org/bible/psalms/51 - "That you may be justified when you give sentence and be without reproach when you judge. O see, in guilt was I born, a sinner was I conceived."

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Clare~Therese]

I might as well get on the bandwagon.

In July one of my cousins is getting married. They're getting married in a Catholic Church but it's not a Mass because they're not really practicing. 

But what I'm concerned about is the reception. I have another female relative, who is divorced (no annulment, not interested in looking into it as a possibility) who is dating a man (also doesn't have an annulment) and they are going to the reception together, like a couple. If one of them starts talking to me, what should I do? Can I be polite and say hi, with small talk? Would talking to them at all be like "approving" their relationship? 

[Maggyie]

Good Lord no. Shun them. Shunnnnnnnn. 

*****

Seriously I don't blame you. With some attitudes in the Church it's easy to get the impression that shunning sinners might be one of the precepts of the Church. 

[Spem in alium]

24 minutes ago, Clare~Therese said:

I might as well get on the bandwagon.

In July one of my cousins is getting married. They're getting married in a Catholic Church but it's not a Mass because they're not really practicing. 

But what I'm concerned about is the reception. I have another female relative, who is divorced (no annulment, not interested in looking into it as a possibility) who is dating a man (also doesn't have an annulment) and they are going to the reception together, like a couple. If one of them starts talking to me, what should I do? Can I be polite and say hi, with small talk? Would talking to them at all be like "approving" their relationship? 

Yes, you can talk to them. Talking to them doesn't automatically mean you approve of or condone their lifestyle, it shows you're polite and friendly. I have a friend who is openly atheist, gay and married, and a cousin who is gay and wanting to be married, and I communicate with them - but I don't agree with their choice, and I'm fairly sure they would be aware of that given they know I'm a sister.
The fact of the matter is, every person - regardless of their state in life, relationships, sexual orientation, etc. - has an inherent dignity by virtue of the fact that God dwells in their soul (even if they don't recognise Him there). This dignity has to be respected, but it can be so easy to overlook or ignore when we're faced with circumstances or situations that confront our own tastes or values.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Spem in alium

[Clare~Therese]

Thank you!!

People now viewing this thread, I don't think anymore replies are necessary. 

[HisChildForever]

If you can't talk with them, then you can't talk with anyone, because we're all sinners.