The Antichrist

[McM RSCJ]

What do you mean, Josh, when you say Jews worship "God the Father"?

I am not necessarily disagreeing, since I find many names for God in the Hebrew Scriptures.  I am certainly aware of prophetic passages in which God calls Israel, my son, out of Egypt and calls Daughter Zion.  It is understandable that in trying to capture the free, unending, and unconditional love of God, scriptural authors would draw on maternal and paternal self-giving.  Many other passages refer to "The Lord God, etc.

But the appellation "God the Father" in Judaic scriptures indicates to you proof that Christians and Jews worship the same God and the true God.  

I am genuinely asking why you think this?  And from what supposedly Catholic teachers you learned this?

i also wonder what you would think if, for Islam, one of the many names of Allah is "Father"?

[Guest]

The deity Jews worship is from the Old Testament scriptures correct? While scriptures in the Koran explicitly have their deity saying Jesus is just a messenger. How could this deity be the same God we worship when he is saying these things about Christ? If this is truly the same deity then that's pretty scary and we're all screwed. Literally.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest

[McM RSCJ]

Your way to God is through Jesus who teaches you to know God as Love, the forgiving Father. 

That is wonderful. Amazing Grace.

But why does it so deeply alarm you to think that the One God, Creator and Source of all of us, of all that is, also calls his own through his Prophet Muhammad and the Qu'ran?

i believe that God is greater than all of our hearts and all of our minds.  I also think that any attempt to put God in a box or to claim to be certain of what God wants is a form of idolatry.  

I want to encourage you to sign up for a university-level course in Scripture, taught by a believing and highly trained (e.g. PhD in Scripture from a major university) Catholic Professor. The Catholic Church does not teach/require a "literalist" approach to the truths of the Sacred Scriptures.  

[Guest]

So you're saying God the Father would deny Jesus Christ as his son  to bring Muslims into the fold?

This is what Catholics now believe and teach?

Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest

[Nihil Obstat]

I believe McM is unwittingly denying Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus by saying that someone can be saved through Islam and Muhammad. It is absolutely false that one can be saved through a false religion, though it is possible to be saved in spite of it.

No grace comes through Islam. None whatsoever. This is dogma.

[McM RSCJ]

No, Josh, I am not saying God would deny Jesus Christ.  Why would you think I am?

Nihal, while I think you may Intend to be kind in calling me unwitting, alas, I am fully "witting," when I call all of us to remember that not one of us knows the mind and plan of God.  Not one is us.  Dogma is a not a straitjacket for the one who strives to be obedient to the Spirit of God, working always around, apart from, and within us.  Discernment is a gift the Spirit gives to those who humbly submit and seek.

I am also saying I believe God and God's creative plan are far beyond our limited understandings.  And I believe a) anyone who claims to know the mind and plans of God is putting God in a box which is a kind (witting or unwitting) idolatry; b) the grace of God abounds, as God works in all of human history.

"Lo, I am doing something new.  Can you not perceive it?"

Josh and Nihil, if Islam were a graced path to salvation for Muslims, again I ask:  why is this so disturbing to each of you?

I am genuinely interested in the "why" for each of you.

[Guest]

Just now, McM RSCJ said:

No, Josh, I am not saying God would deny Jesus Christ.  Why would you think I am?

 

That is exactly what Allah in the Koran does. He rejects Jesus as his son. I posted the Scriptures from the Koran. I'm sure there are more. You're saying God the Father is revealing himself as Allah in the Koran. So you think that's how God the Father works? He has Jesus go to the cross and die the horrific death he did for our sins so we can have Salvation. But then a little later shows up in the Koran and says Jesus didn't die for our sins and is just a messenger and denies him as his son. This is okay with you? It sounds pretty frightening to me. 

Maybe you missed this. PLEASE for the sake of your soul let it sink in Galatians 1:8 But if we or an angel from Heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you let them be accursed.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myselfand clear thee of the falsehoods of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. (3:55, Yusif Ali)

Edited June 16, 2016 by Guest

[Nihil Obstat]

I am saddened by the fact that you reject this dogma of the Church, and do so in full knowledge. We have nothing else to discuss, because such a position is simply heresy. Unbecoming of a Catholic, frankly.

@dUSt, may I suggest that these posts qualify McM for a phishy tag?

[Guest]

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (5:116, Yusif Ali)

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! (9:30, Yusif Ali)

Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. 35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. (19:34-35, Yusif Ali)

When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)! 58 And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people. 59 He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel. (43:57-59, Yusif Ali)

[McM RSCJ]

Nihil, I have no idea who you are, but I know you have no authority to determine my views are "simply heresy."  If you think my views are "phishy," that's your right. But I know I am a Religious in good standing with a strong background in graduate level theology, and I am in full pastoral ministry in an inter-faith setting.  

I will continue to believe that God is always acting in history and calling/inviting us to break through the narrow boundaries we limited and sinful human beings often want to place on God.

As Pope Francis puts the point so well, when we focus so narrowly on aspects or formulations of "dogma," we can miss the God of surprises--and how sad that is.

Josh, I will conclude by inviting you to discern what Jesus is asking of you in the aftermath of the Orlando massacre?  Are you sure Jesus is inviting you to respond with so much anger and condemnation against Islam?  (You have to decide that in prayer.). But, for the record, I do not believe Jesus of the Gospels wants that from anyone of us.

Edited June 16, 2016 by McM RSCJ

[Nihil Obstat]

Many extremely smart people hold views which are radically incompatible with Catholic teaching. My priest often reminds us that sin darkens the intellect. That is all I have to say on the subject. 

[Peace]

2 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I believe McM is unwittingly denying Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus by saying that someone can be saved through Islam and Muhammad. It is absolutely false that one can be saved through a false religion, though it is possible to be saved in spite of it.

No grace comes through Islam. None whatsoever. This is dogma.

Now I must be a little nit-picky here. I am not convinced that MCM was precisely incorrect. I think that you may just be reading more into his/her statement than was warranted. But that is certainly understandable, I too gleefully jump at the opportunity to accuse someone of denying Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

He/she seems to suggest that the Holy Spirit works through non-Catholic communities of faith. I am fairly certain that Benedict or John Paul II wrote the same. I can't remember the specific document off the top of my head, but I will see if I can find it.

[Guest]

The only way that makes sense if none of the Bible actually happened. If the Gospels are just myths. That God just uses different religions to reach different cultures. So Jesus didn't really die on the cross and raise from the dead. It's just a good story that conveys a higher truth that will be helpful to certain people. So there's no conflict then when Allah in the Koran says Jesus isn't his son. Because the story in the Bible didn't actually happen. On the other hand if the Gospels actually happened how can it be acceptable for God the Father to deny Jesus to billions of Muslims? Because God can do what he wants? Ok? That frightens me especially since this Muslim God says to kill all those who won't convert. So this is the Christian God? Really? Gives new meaning to Jesus on the cross asking God why he had forsaken him.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Guest

[Peace]

50 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Many extremely smart people hold views which are radically incompatible with Catholic teaching. My priest often reminds us that sin darkens the intellect. That is all I have to say on the subject. 

This is what I had in mind, although I admit that it does not necessarily apply to non-Christian communities of faith:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life - that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God. This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God's gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem.