Bishop in Butte, Montana Permitting Outdoor Catholic Weddings

[DameAgnes]

http://aleteia.org/blogs/the-daily-catch/outdoor-catholic-weddings-now-permitted-in-butte-montana/

[Gabriela]

Why would this be prohibited? And why can't it be a Mass?

[truthfinder]

Generally, weddings are to be conducted in the church, and further Masses should also be in the church.  Permission to be married anywhere other than a Catholic church requires the permission of the bishop, and Masses outside are only under exceptional circumstances (ie, WYD, you've taken a priest with you on a hiking trip, etc).  

[NadaTeTurbe]

6 hours ago, truthfinder said:

 you've taken a priest with you on a hiking trip, etc 

And even here, it's only if you can't find a little church, or a farm, etc... Sadly, many people disobey to that, specially in scouting, where pictures of outdoor mass are so popular on the troop's website. 

[Gabriela]

Okay, but WHY? I mean, what's wrong with having Mass outdoors? I know there are relics and whatnot in the altar, but what if you bring that stuff with you?

As a nature lover, I think outdoors is the BEST place to have Mass. Yeah, there can be distractions, but if you do it in the right place, it can also be incredibly prayerful and inspiring.

Is there some connection to the ancient pagan nature rights or something in this prohibition?

[Sponsa-Christi]

3 hours ago, Gabriela said:

Okay, but WHY? I mean, what's wrong with having Mass outdoors? I know there are relics and whatnot in the altar, but what if you bring that stuff with you?

As a nature lover, I think outdoors is the BEST place to have Mass. Yeah, there can be distractions, but if you do it in the right place, it can also be incredibly prayerful and inspiring.

Is there some connection to the ancient pagan nature rights or something in this prohibition?

I think this is mainly to do with the idea of a Church as a consecrated space, and with "inside a Church" being considered the most appropriate and dignified setting for sacraments. I think one issue with outdoor Masses is also care for the Bl. Sacrament. E.g., you don't want a blue jay to fly down and snatch a consecrated host, bugs to fall in the chalice, a sudden high wind to blow the altar linens away, etc. (Though in Rome the Pope does celebrate outdoor Masses on a fairly regular basis during the nicer months.) 

I can see the logic of wanting sacraments to be celebrated ordinarily in the space that was purpose-built for them. But with that being said, I think it's good that Montana is removing one more objection some couples might have to being married in a Catholic ceremony.

[Gabriela]

Can one consecrate an outdoor space? I mean, we consecrate cemeteries. But if I'm not mistaken, ground once consecrated is a pain to un-consecrate, no?

[Sponsa-Christi]

4 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

Can one consecrate an outdoor space? I mean, we consecrate cemeteries. But if I'm not mistaken, ground once consecrated is a pain to un-consecrate, no?

I was thinking of a church as being "consecrated" more in the sense of: "a space created and set aside for prayer and sacraments, which isn't ordinarily used for any other purpose," rather than merely: "a space that we did a special blessing on a few years ago." 

Aside from the idea that you really can't "consecrate" something as a quick one-off, "un-consecrating" anything consecrated sort of isn't super-possible. So it really wouldn't work to say: "This is a nice patch of woods to be married in! Let's bring Father over to consecrate it, and then we'll de-consecrate it after the ceremony so hikers can still camp here."

You probably could make some kind of "consecrated" outdoor space if you set aside some Church property and ONLY used it for prayerful purposes. For example, I saw a parish Church in Florida where they had a grotto-type outdoor area, with a little pavilion with an altar, where they would celebrate daily Mass a few times a week. It was lovely! But this may not be the setting some people want when the want to be married "out in nature."

[Gabriela]

First of all: Thank you, Sponsa, for all your helpful answers!  

Now as to un-consecrating things: I thought they do this to parishes they've sold before they're taken possession of by... whomever. Protestants, coffee shops, whatever.

[Nihil Obstat]

There was a time that a specific grave plot was de consecrated in order to comply with a court order to bury a politician in a Catholic cemetery, but also to maintain the integrity of Catholic discipline as this politician was not in good standing with the Church when he died. 

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

2 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

There was a time that a specific grave plot was de consecrated in order to comply with a court order to bury a politician in a Catholic cemetery, but also to maintain the integrity of Catholic discipline as this politician was not in good standing with the Church when he died. 

Interesting--and fitting. I can think of at least one late Chicago mayor who probably deserved this treatment, but he likely is not the one you're thinking of. (Too long ago for you to think of as a first example, but recent enough for me to have lived through.) In addition, only after his death did credible information surface that the reputation of the Roman Catholic Archbishop who was "in bed" (metaphorically) with this particular mayor might have been different if not for the Archbishop's timely death.

Note: I don't hold the Catholic Church as a whole responsible in any way for the behavior of the mayor and the Archbishop, nor has it turned me against the Catholic church. Mayors and Archbishops are human beings, subject to temptation, just like the (many) Evangelical Protestant "leaders" who have proven to have feet of clay. Christian leaders (of any denomination) should ideally be an example to others, but unfortunately that very same power and influence can make it easier for them to stray.

[Nihil Obstat]

This was a Canadian bishop some time ago, and the politician was an avowed secularist.

[truthfinder]

18 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

This was a Canadian bishop some time ago, and the politician was an avowed secularist.

I just came in here to write about the Bishop Bourget/Guibord incident. 

Edited June 15, 2016 by truthfinder

[Nihil Obstat]

2 minutes ago, truthfinder said:

I just came in here to write about the Bishop Bourget/Guibord incident. 

What a guy.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Nihil Obstat

[truthfinder]

1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said:

What a guy.

That's for sure: he had a very strong affect on Canadian/Quebec Catholicism. I could probably write an entire thread just on him.