stanford rape case

[KnightofChrist]

16 minutes ago, Era Might said:

It depends on what you think the purpose of a prison sentence is in the first place. For example, in this case, suppose he were sentenced to 8 years in prison. Is that to exclude him from society, or to inflict pain and misery, or just as a warning to future rapists? The form depends on the function. But our present system is based on state discipline and punishment. The Wife of Bath in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales tells of a Knight who commits rape and receives an alternative punishment:

 

 

I'm asking you for a definitive answer and you're giving me jello. I believe he should have a very least served the eight years in prison that the jury suggested. Depending on the degree of the crime or crimes rapists should serve years in prison and in some cases be subject to capital punishment. But that's what I believe. I asked you for examples of alternatives to prison since you suggested there are alternatives. Also I think the alternative of allowing Brock Allen Turner to go free in search of what women really want is horse $#-+.

Edited June 9, 2016 by KnightofChrist

[Era Might]

8 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

I'm asking you for a definitive answer and you're giving me jello. I believe he should have a very least served the eight years in prison that the jury suggested. Depending on the degree of the crime or crimes rapists should serve years in prison and in some cases be subject to capital punishment. But that's what I believe. I asked you for examples of alternatives to prison since you suggested there are alternatives. Also I think the alternative of allowing Brock Allen Turner to go free in search of what women really want is horse $#-+.

Ok, you apparently believe in the American prison system and its purposes. You missed my point. I'm not trying to debate prison sentences, I'm asking what the function of justice is and the state apparatus for delivering it. If you accept the American state apparatus and it's purpose, then I would expect you to demand prison sentences and capital punishment. My point wasn't to argue about that, but to question the entire conception of justice in America and the modern world. The Wife of Bath's Tale is so shocking because it is not based on the modern ideology of discipline and punishment. Modern prisons reflect modern ideas.

19 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

To be honest I love Arthurian tales but that's a prescription for a whole lot of rapes. I know what you're getting at about alternatives. But with sex offenders it's hard because of the tendency to re-offend. 

Yeah...the point of reform is not to avoid hard problems, but to really do the work of a society and question whether our institutions reflect our ideals. America has had a very good history doing that...with slavery, with female suffrage, with capital punishment, etc. It's time to do it with prison, because it has become an inhumane and oppressive institution (it always was, but it's time to put ideas to practice and find alternatives, which many countries have been doing). I read sn interesting comment the other day about how if the sin of 20th century intellectuals was to imagine utopias, the sin of the 21st century will be to imagine nothing is possible to change. Look at what's going on around the world, a new rise of nationalism and resentful groupthink, including here in America with Trump. This is not a good development for democracy.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Era Might

[Era Might]

57 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

To be honest I love Arthurian tales but that's a prescription for a whole lot of rapes. I know what you're getting at about alternatives. But with sex offenders it's hard because of the tendency to re-offend. 

Also, just to add, his prison sentence would have nothing to do with reoffending. He could reoffend in 8 years or 8 months. He is being punished for a crime, not for a potential crime. And I can't imagine any psychologist who would argue that it improves someone to sit in prison for 8 years. If the goal is reintegration into a community, then the punishment should help facilitate that. If the goal is vengeance, then we mind as well just create crematoriums, it's more efficient.

[Anomaly]

Era is fundamentally asking what Justice is?    Is it strictly punishment and is punishment' purpose a deterrent or revenge?    One action may be classified as either or both. 

Is Justice removing him from society, strictly to protect society?   As Era pointed out, how does that matter when the internment period ends?

Or is Justice served with rehabilitation?  How does that work?   Who is more likely  to rehabilitate?  Someone on the fringes of society, or someone well integrated into Society with money and social expectations?

 

 I do note that anti death penalty and anti vengeance persons are decrying the lack of sufficient punishment.  

Edited June 9, 2016 by Anomaly

[Era Might]

12 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

 I do note that anti death penalty and anti vengeance persons are decrying the lack of sufficient punishment.  

Exactly, and not just that, but our criminal justice system completely erases the victims, who become just witnesses to the state's prosecution of its violators. The human dimension of justice is abstracted and concentrated in the state, not in the people involved and the community. The goal is not vengeance but healing. This has been improved with things such as perpetrator-victim encounters, trying to bring them together, if not for complete healing, for dialogue, for them to see the face of the other. At the end of Homer's Iliad, after Achilles has killed Hector and desecrated his body, there's an immortal scene where Priam, Hector's father, goes to Achilles to beg for his son's body. It's a meeting charged with resentment, humility, and danger, but also to whatever limited extent, healing and encounter. 

Anyway, sorry to @Ice_nine if I've usurped the thread. Feel free to get back to this specific case and the social problem of rape.

[Anomaly]

A great thing about American society, is that we can question and challenge the status quo.    Not likely any of us will be in a Cuban prison for dissenting.  

Whether we question and challenge often enough or intelligently enough is questionable. 

On this Standfird issue, I fall strongly in the side that punishment is one of the motivations for rehabilitation.  For a privileged person like Turner, a very strong motivation for rehabilitation.  He has more to lose and resources to aid him.  Ironically, a poor person has less to lose and less resources.  Harsh punishment is more punitive and abetting rehabilitation is more difficult and complicated.    However, we desire a Justice Standard of punishment so that it would seem impartial.   That's why zero tolerance and mandatory sentences can result in a long prison sentence for am adult having sex with a 17yo in Era's example.  And the US isn't India or Pakistan where a mob can  or needs to) try, convict, and punish. 

[KnightofChrist]

3 hours ago, Era Might said:

Ok, you apparently believe in the American prison system and its purposes. You missed my point. I'm not trying to debate prison sentences, I'm asking what the function of justice is and the state apparatus for delivering it. If you accept the American state apparatus and it's purpose, then I would expect you to demand prison sentences and capital punishment. My point wasn't to argue about that, but to question the entire conception of justice in America and the modern world. The Wife of Bath's Tale is so shocking because it is not based on the modern ideology of discipline and punishment. Modern prisons reflect modern ideas.

I do not necessarily believe in the current prison system. But I don't see any other alternatives and therefore I cannot state prison should be abolished. I asked you for examples of alternatives because you stated that you believe prison needs to be abolished and you cited a book that claimed in its summary to give so-called proven alternatives to prison. 

The story of the Knight is not shocking to me because of any span of time between the culture of then and now. It not even really shocking at all. I object to it because it's a fairy tail, not a real life example of an alternative to prison for the crime of rape.

Do you remember any examples from the book you cited that would be an alternative to prison for crimes such as rape? I am curious to what they would be, the two examples given so far would not work, in my opinion, for the crime of rape. 

[HisChildForever]

I can only speak for my state, but our prisons (at the state level, at least) do provide educational, vocational, therapeutic, and parenting programs. 

[Era Might]

9 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

I do not necessarily believe in the current prison system. But I don't see any other alternatives and therefore I cannot state prison should be abolished. I asked you for examples of alternatives because you stated that you believe prison needs to be abolished and you cited a book that claimed in its summary to give so-called proven alternatives to prison. 

The story of the Knight is not shocking to me because of any span of time between the culture of then and now. It not even really shocking at all. I object to it because it's a fairy tail, not a real life example of an alternative to prison for the crime of rape.

Do you remember any examples from the book you cited that would be an alternative to prison for crimes such as rape? I am curious to what they would be, the two examples given so far would not work, in my opinion, for the crime of rape. 

Again, I can't say an alternative until I know what it's an alternative to. The book explores alternatives to the entire concept of justice in the modern world...but that's not necessarily what you're looking for an alternative to, so I can't answer your question unless you clarify.

5 minutes ago, HisChildForever said:

I can only speak for my state, but our prisons (at the state level, at least) do provide educational, vocational, therapeutic, and parenting programs. 

That's good...but also sad that you have to go to prison to get them. The fact they are needed in prison reflects the fact that prison is populated precisely by those whom society has already failed.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Era Might

[Anomaly]

11 minutes ago, Era Might said:

 

That's good...but also sad that you have to go to prison to get them. The fact they are needed in prison reflects the fact that prison is populated precisely by those whom society has already failed.

I don't think it's reasonable to think society necessarily failed.    Failed in what way?   Failed in providing the opportunity for education, failed in motivating the individual in utilizing the opportunity for education, failed in convincing the person to value the education, etc.?   How about failing to develop a sense of self responsibility?   Maybe the person failed one time in making the proper choice and got caught and is now facing the natural consequences of their action?  Maybe the person simply had chosen to do what THEY want and it hasn't worked out positively for them. 

[Era Might]

11 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

I don't think it's reasonable to think society necessarily failed.    Failed in what way?   Failed in providing the opportunity for education, failed in motivating the individual in utilizing the opportunity for education, failed in convincing the person to value the education, etc.?   How about failing to develop a sense of self responsibility?   Maybe the person failed one time in making the proper choice and got caught and is now facing the natural consequences of their action?  Maybe the person simply had chosen to do what THEY want and it hasn't worked out positively for them. 

The way I look at it is that people are products of their society. I'm a materialist in the sense that I believe material reality produces everything, including ideas. Our education system, for example, is based on our material reality...it's only the middle and upper classes that can afford to study literature. I don't believe people are prone toward their bad interests, they are prone there because of their material reality, the realistic possibilities they see, etc. Would you see it differently?

Edited June 9, 2016 by Era Might

[Anomaly]

I see the interaction of society and people vastly different.  Where you see society as materially determining people's outcome and status, I see as strongly infuencing, and in various degrees. 

Turner claimed he acted out in a sexual manner due to societal influences to drink, party, be promiscuous, etc..   Though aspects of society muddle its message, ultimately he had to make the choice of how to act.  Why aren't all frat boys rapists?  What should the women expect when they put themselves in a situation with dangerous societal context?

Blaming society for the failure diminishes personal responsibility.   But, I do agree, society has a very powerful influence, but I think we would disagree as to the general degree of influence. 

And it isn't just the monied class that has access to study literature, and if so, is literature the only source of enlightenment beyond animal baseness?   I don't think so at all, and find that thought bigoted classism.  

Edited June 9, 2016 by Anomaly

[Era Might]

20 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

I see the interaction of society and people vastly different.  Where you see society as materially determining people's outcome and status, I see as strongly infuencing, and in various degrees. 

Turner claimed he acted out in a sexual manner due to societal influences to drink, party, be promiscuous, etc..   Though aspects of society muddle its message, ultimately he had to make the choice of how to act.  Why aren't all frat boys rapists?  What should the women expect when they put themselves in a situation with dangerous societal context?

Blaming society for the failure diminishes personal responsibility.   But, I do agree, society has a very powerful influence, but I think we would disagree as to the general degree of influence. 

And it isn't just the monied class that has access to study literature, and if so, is literature the only source of enlightenment beyond animal baseness?   I don't think so at all, and find that thought bigoted classism.  

I don't think you're seeing it from a large enough perspective. Of course, we are each conscious and able to act, but we act within a material reality. Certainly, I don't believe that actions can be dismissed as inevitable. In other words, it's not that he was a rapist because he was rich, but rather, his material reality was such that he could conceive of his own power and right to take advantage of an unconscious woman, just as a master can conceive of dominating his inferiors, or a man can conceive of dominating a woman. Husbands today are less machismo not because they are more virtuous, but because women have a more autonomous material reality and can leave the marriage as easily as they joined it.

Literature is purely aesthetic. It is consciousness for consciousness' sake, or in the usual phrasing, art for art's sake. The lower classes do not have the freedom to be conscious. They have to follow material reality, or else starve. When they commit crime, invariably it is not because they are less virtuous than the rich, but because they have less opportunity to be conscious of their material reality. They depend on material reality to guide them, but unfortunately, material reality is shaped by those who control them, who have the leisure and space to be conscious, whether through literature or politics or art. But the ruling classes become idealists, thinking that they are superior by design rather than material freedom.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Era Might

[Era Might]

38 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

I see the interaction of society and people vastly different.  Where you see society as materially determining people's outcome and status, I see as strongly infuencing, and in various degrees. 

Turner claimed he acted out in a sexual manner due to societal influences to drink, party, be promiscuous, etc..   Though aspects of society muddle its message, ultimately he had to make the choice of how to act.  Why aren't all frat boys rapists?  What should the women expect when they put themselves in a situation with dangerous societal context?

Blaming society for the failure diminishes personal responsibility.   But, I do agree, society has a very powerful influence, but I think we would disagree as to the general degree of influence. 

And it isn't just the monied class that has access to study literature, and if so, is literature the only source of enlightenment beyond animal baseness?   I don't think so at all, and find that thought bigoted classism.  

To put it in a different light, religion is entirely materialist. The less man knows, the more he creates ideas to explain and govern his material reality. The lightning becomes God's anger. Once material reality evolves, so too do ideas. The lightning becomes a symbol rather than an act. Eventually lightning becomes a measurable phenomena, and the idea of God disappears because it is no longer materially necessary.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Era Might

[KnightofChrist]

2 hours ago, Era Might said:

Again, I can't say an alternative until I know what it's an alternative to. The book explores alternatives to the entire concept of justice in the modern world...but that's not necessarily what you're looking for an alternative to, so I can't answer your question unless you clarify.

Well, prison is a form of punishment by the state which acts as an avenger for victims (at least ideally). Punishment by the state is intended to redress the disorder caused by the offense. If the state turns away from punishments like imprisonment how can it still redress the disorder caused by the offense? By what other means can it redress the disorder caused by the rape of the victim?

The thought of throwing out the prison system seems both unrealistic and alien to me. So I am unsure how I would clarify further. In a world without punishment or prisons what do we do with rapists? Would we even attempt to redress the disorder caused by the offense? I have no idea how that would work, that is why I am asking you.