Challenging The Origins Of Christianity & Judaism

[Cure of Ars]

I am talking with someone who says that Judaism and Christianity has its origins in pagan/ Egyptian religion. I know most of the arguments rely on the Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy but I want some historical facts to support this. Does anyone have any good links for this?

She is also saying the Jesus was not a person but only a myth. Do we have info on this?

Also, Phatcatholic, I think it would be helpful to have a section on logic errors and critical thinking.

Thanks for the help

[crusader1234]

Well, in Genesis 12, God comes to Abram and says leave everything I'm showing you something new... thats one pretty clear example.

[url="http://jewfaq.org/origins.htm"]This might help a little bit...[/url]

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger, wrote about a group of people in their time who followed a recently crucified man called "Chrestus". I also don't see how a person would spread the gospel in the Roman Empire, just to get crucified for doing so.

The pagan origins thing just sounds goofy to me. Its probably the same junk from [i]The DaVinci Code[/i] (like Isis inspiring Mary pictures, etc.). Its all bogus, check out [i]Fact and Fiction in the DaVinci Code[/i] by Steve Kellmeyer.

Edited June 20, 2004 by thedude

[MorphRC]

Here's some quotes: Outside Sources - Non-Biblical

[b]Josephus. A Jewish historian writing AD 66 -[/b]

'It was at that time a man appeared - if 'man' is the right word - who had all the attributes of a man but seemed to be something greater. His actions certainly were superhuman for he worked such wonderful and amazing miracles that I for one cannot regard him as a man; yet in view of his likeness to ourselves I cannot regard him as an angel either'

[i]This is a Christian writing, but its non-biblical, so if they want to listen they;ll take notice of these:[/i]

[b]Ignatius of Antioch- Disciple of Saint Peter & Paul[/b]

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

[b]Pope Clement I - Disciple of Saint Paul[/b]

"Then the reverence of the law is chanted, and the grace of the prophets is known, and the faith of the Gospels is established, and the tradition of the apostles is preserved, and the grace of the Church exults" (Letter to the Corinthians 11 [[b]A.D. 80[/b]]).

[b]The Didache[/b]

"You shall not waver with regard to your decisions [Sir. 1:28]. Do not be someone who stretches out his hands to receive but withdraws them when it comes to giving [Sir. 4:31]" (Didache 4:5 [A.D. 70]).

[b]NOTE:[/b]

[i]I attached the whole Didache, the top pic may have an X, didnt load the pic with it, but the text still works.[/i]

[b]The Letter of Barnabas[/b]

"Since, therefore, [Christ] was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, his suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against evil, ‘Woe to their soul, because they have counseled an evil counsel against themselves’ [Is. 3:9], saying, ‘Let us bind the righteous man because he is displeasing to us’ [Wis. 2:12.]" (Letter of Barnabas 6:7 [A.D. 74]).

[b]Clement of Rome[/b]

"By the word of his might [God] established all things, and by his word he can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say to him, "What have you done?" or who shall resist the power of his strength?’ [Wis. 12:12]" (Letter to the Corinthians 27:5 [ca. A.D. 80]).

[b]NON-RELIGIOUS[/b]

[b]Pliny - writing in AD 112 -[/b]

In a letter to the Emperor Trajan, the Younger Pliny complains that there was a slump in the agricultural markets because people were no longer buying beasts for sacrifice. This was the fault of people called 'Christians', who formed secret society and refused to offer sacrifice to the god-emperor.

[b]Tacitus - writing in early 2nd century 115AD-132AD[/b]

The Roman historian Tacitus wrote that Christians had been made a scapegoat for the great fire of Rome in the reign of Nero[64AD]. Their founder was a criminal who had been excuted by Pontius Pilate thirty years or so earlier. Unfortunately, the death of the ringleader had not stopped the mischief!

See If I can find somemore.

paul.

[MorphRC]

More.

[b]Josephus. A Jewish historian writing AD 66 -[/b]

[b]
Antiquities of the Jews

BOOK XX

CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF TWENTY-TWO YEARS.
FROM FADUS THE PROCURATOR TO FLORUS.

CHAPTER 9.
CONCERNING ALBINUS UNDER WHOSE PROCURATORSHIP JAMES WAS SLAIN; AS ALSO WHAT EDIFICES WERE BUILT BY AGRIPPA.[/b]

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:....

Thats all I can find.
paul

[Cure of Ars]

Thanks for the help.

[MorphRC]

No Problemo

[Crusader_4]

Wow great thanx for the Didache i had never got around to reading it till you posted it and now i have placed it in my favourites! Its going to come in real handy thanx!

[MorphRC]

[color=red][b]Complete Didache HTML with Picture[/b][/color]

30KB

Edited June 21, 2004 by MorphRC

[Crusader_4]

The previous didache you posted was it the complete version?

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Crusader_4' date='Jun 21 2004, 01:29 PM'] The previous didache you posted was it the complete version? [/quote]
Yes. The Complete Didache Text was there, but the credits of translation and the Pic up the top werent there. So thought Id better keep the credits on.

[Cure of Ars]

Here is a good one on the historical proof of Jesus


[url="http://css.catholicexchange.com/truthtract.asp?qid=79"]http://css.catholicexchange.com/truthtract.asp?qid=79[/url]

[Crusader_4]

I must say i am amazed at it its much shorter and simple to read then i had thought to be and one can see some really orthodox teachings in there i can even get why its so highly regarded yet not quite canoncial...amazing book.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Crusader_4' date='Jun 21 2004, 02:05 PM'] I must say i am amazed at it its much shorter and simple to read then i had thought to be and one can see some really orthodox teachings in there i can even get why its so highly regarded yet not quite canoncial...amazing book. [/quote]
It was canon for the majority of Christians, but still never got accepted, the word Eucharist in Scripture would have come in handy for ya's against prots.

Edited June 21, 2004 by MorphRC

[Crusader_4]

I noted that as well as the phrase its not an exact quote but "in regards to presumption of the soul" and also the other good point with the forgiveness of sins as well as baptism...great book any idea who actually wrote it or are there any theories floating around?