Honesty

[Anomaly]

Amor, 

I wish you and your family a lifetime of love and happiness.  

 

I am glad you're trying to be honest with yourself and others.  But honesty can be painful.   I'm an ex-Catholic and it was painful to leave the many things that are wonderful, nurturing, beneficial, and honest about the Catholic Church.  Many things that I still agree with.  But in honesty, I could not call myself Catholic if I know my profession is not true, nor claim it's the Church, not me.  The Church as an institution has the right to define what its rules are. You can choose to follow and belong, or agree with some and be a "groupie" and glean things that are personally beneficial. I think that it's not honest to say you're Catholic if you aren't intending to change behaviors to become more in compliance with fundamental Catholic requirements. 

Edited May 27, 2016 by Anomaly

[Winchester]

Honestly, the only thing that bugs me about the LBGTQ community is that letters keep getting added. And there's no way to pronounce the acronym. Okay, the term "community" bothers me, too. It's like when people talk about the "black community". If I were black, when someone said that, I would always say "What, y'all think we all know each other?" and then everyone would laugh while the person who said it looked slightly uncomfortable, but then I'd say "I'm just messing with you, man, it's cool."

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

We know that Jesus did not approve of prostitution etc., yet he broke the rules of Kosher (a VERY big deal) to share meals with prostitutes, tax collectors, etc. Sharing meals in that time was an important way to show fellowship, and I strongly doubt that a prostitute would voluntarily share a meal with someone who spent the whole meal shaming her. Jesus found a way to be loving and caring, even to those who engaged in actions he disagreed with and preached against.

There is a balance here, but it is very difficult. Yet, I think that this is what Jesus taught us we should be doing, and fits into what the Pope is asking us to do in the Year of Mercy.

I don't have answers, but if Jesus was able to do it, there must be a way.

There was a scene in a TV show that summed up for me one way to do this. The show was about a group of teenagers in England. The devout Muslim family of one of the teenage boys was throwing him a big family birthday party, and the family invited all their son's close friends. The son's very closest friend from childhood was a wonderful, good person, and the son's parents loved the friend as if he were their own son. However, the friend was homosexual. The friend told the son that he wouldn't attend his birthday party unless the son told his father that the friend was homosexual.

Leaving out some drama in between, eventually the son, the friend, and the father met outside the party, and the father wanted to know why the friend was not inside. The friend told the father that he was homosexual.

The father thought for a minute, and gave this answer, "I am a devout Muslim and I know what my religion teaches. But, because of my faith, I also trust that some day I will understand." Then the father escorted the son's homosexual friend into the party as an honored guest.

Today we see through a glass darkly, but someday we will understand. In the meantime, I think we are called to find a way to be merciful, caring, and loving.

People who know me know why this is a big issue for me, even though I am straight. I've been grappling with it for 20+ years, and still don't have answers. I still love my Catholic ex-husband, even though he came out as homosexual, and we divorced. Technically, since our Catholic marriage has never been annulled, I am married in the eyes of the Catholic church. My inner questions about this issue are one of the big reasons I have not converted to Catholicism, despite the fact that I agree with most of the major tenets of the Faith.

Amor, I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you decided to be honest, although it's already been difficult. As for me, I'm (literally) sick, and too tired for arguments and debates, so I normally say nothing if I disagree. Sometimes that feels to me like lying by omission, but even when I disagree with some views of Phatmass folks, I still care for them and pray for them. This is a Catholic Board, and reflects Church teaching. No one is making me post here, but if I do, I feel I need to show respect for Catholic teachings and try to understand, even if I can't agree. And, some day (probably not in this life) I will understand.

Edited May 27, 2016 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[beatitude]

From my experience, when I went off-road, I never stopped believing in Catholicism. Not for one moment. I (almost) wanted to; it felt like it would be easier for me if I found a home in some other Christian community. (And when I say 'easier', I don't mean that I was just looking for a comfy easy life - I think you're unlikely to get that as any kind of Christian, or any kind of sincere person for that matter.) I have a lot of time and respect for the Quakers, and I did wonder fleetingly if I could go to them. But ultimately I couldn't, because of that "You are Peter..." in which I never stopped believing. I don't think going against my conscience made me a non-Catholic. It made me one who was struggling with many things - with some legitimate doubts and questions, but mostly with myself and my fears and even with my hopes and things in life that were pure good, such as my vocation. And even when I was going against my faith, on some level I recognised that my faith was going to save me in the end. It's hard to explain, but I can relate to this: "I believe in everything the Catholic Church stands for and I know that contradicts everything."

My own situation wasn't the same as Amor's. I'm not gay. But the difficulty with accepting my vocation - which simultaneously appealed to me and scared me off - made me think about gay Catholics, and how they are often faced with this dilemma of how best to express love. Cherishing another person is a pure good thing; it is confusing to be in a situation where you feel all that but know you can't enter into a relationship with that person. And I think one of the biggest mistakes straight Catholics make is assuming that this issue is all about sex. Celibacy would be a piece of cake if that were all there was to it. I may not be gay, as I said, but I am a celibate person, and I'm part of a secular institute, not a religious community. This means I wake up and eat breakfast on my own, not surrounded by sisters. Meanwhile most of my friends are marrying and others are entering the religious life. The challenge of the secular celibate vocation is that you don't have the intimacy of a marriage - no best friend to share everything with - or the supportive companionship of a community. You have to strike out and find companionship in other ways, and I think it's fair to say that there are far more unknowns in your life than there are for religious or for married couples. And then there are going to be those times when you fall for someone. No matter whether they're male or female, it's still going to have a strong factor of 'ow'. It's a beautiful life and I would not want to be living any other way, but it's hard, and so when I see Catholics (especially married Catholics, or Catholics who hope to be married) going, "It's not being gay that's sinful, it's acting on the feelings, so providing you're chaste it's fine! We're all called to chastity!" as though this constitutes an adequate response...I understand why gay people might feel ostracised and unwanted. Because that is not enough.

Sometimes that sense of 'not enough' pushes people to go against the faith, because the sense of something missing really hurts. As a priest told me once, "We are all looking for love, and we look in the wrong places." This is why I don't think a person necessarily ceases to be Catholic if they're doing this. They're looking for something. The good thing is that God is always looking too. "I have not lost one of those whom you gave me."

26 minutes ago, IgnatiusofLoyola said:

I don't have answers, but if Jesus was able to do it, there must be a way.

...

Today we see through a glass darkly, but someday we will understand. In the meantime, I think we are called to find a way to be merciful, caring, and loving.

Best thing I've read all week.

Amor, you, your partner, and your son are all in my prayers. I will remember you especially during the upcoming month dedicated to the Sacred Heart.

[Amor vincit omnia]

14 minutes ago, IgnatiusofLoyola said:

We know that Jesus did not approve of prostitution etc., yet he broke the rules of Kosher (a VERY big deal) to share meals with prostitutes, tax collectors, etc. Sharing meals in that time was an important way to show fellowship, and I strongly doubt that a prostitute would voluntarily share a meal with someone who spent the whole meal shaming her. Jesus found a way to be loving and caring, even to those who engaged in actions he disagreed with and preached against.

There is a balance here, but it is very difficult. Yet, I think that this is what Jesus taught us we should be doing, and fits into what the Pope is asking us to do in the Year of Mercy.

I don't have answers, but if Jesus was able to do it, there must be a way.

There was a scene in a TV show that summed up for me one way to do this. The show was about a group of teenagers in England. The devout Muslim family of one of the teenage boys was throwing him a big family birthday party, and the family invited all their son's close friends. The son's very closest friend from childhood was a wonderful, good person, and the son's parents loved the friend as if he were their own son. However, the friend was homosexual. The friend told the son that he wouldn't attend his birthday party unless the son told his father that the friend was homosexual.

Leaving out some drama in between, eventually the son, the friend, and the father met outside the party, and the father wanted to know why the friend was not inside. The friend told the father that he was homosexual.

The father thought for a minute, and gave this answer, "I am a devout Muslim and I know what my religion teaches. But, because of my faith, I also trust that some day I will understand." Then the father escorted the son's homosexual friend into the party as an honored guest.

Today we see through a glass darkly, but someday we will understand. In the meantime, I think we are called to find a way to be merciful, caring, and loving.

People who know me know why this is a big issue for me, even though I am straight. I've been grappling with it for 20+ years, and still don't have answers. I still love my Catholic ex-husband, even though he came out as homosexual, and we divorced. Technically, since our Catholic marriage has never been annulled, I am married in the eyes of the Catholic church. My inner questions about this issue are one of the big reasons I have not converted to Catholicism, despite the fact that I agree with most of the major tenets of the Faith.

Amor, I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you decided to be honest, although it's already been difficult. As for me, I'm (literally) sick, and too tired for arguments and debates, so I normally say nothing if I disagree. Sometimes that feels to me like lying by omission, but even when I disagree with some views of Phatmass folks, I still care for them and pray for them. This is a Catholic Board, and reflects Church teaching. No one is making me post here, but if I do, I feel I need to show respect for Catholic teachings and try to understand, even if I can't agree. And, some day (probably not in this life) I will understand.

Thank you for this!

  My hope is that someday I am looked at as the human person that I am and not frowned upon just because I am Gay! I am just a young adult who is trying to keep her relationship with Him afloat even though a lot of times I feel like running away from that. I am far from perfect, I make tons of mistakes, and He knows I sin but all I know is that I am loved by Him. 

 

43 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Amor, 

I wish you and your family a lifetime of love and happiness.  

 

I am glad you're trying to be honest with yourself and others.  But honesty can be painful.   I'm an ex-Catholic and it was painful to leave the many things that are wonderful, nurturing, beneficial, and honest about the Catholic Church.  Many things that I still agree with.  But in honesty, I could not call myself Catholic if I know my profession is not true, nor claim it's the Church, not me.  The Church as an institution has the right to define what its rules are. You can choose to follow and belong, or agree with some and be a "groupie" and glean things that are personally beneficial. I think that it's not honest to say you're Catholic if you aren't intending to change behaviors to become more in compliance with fundamental Catholic requirements. 

Thank you for posting this! I seriously needed to read these words!

[Anomaly]

9 minutes ago, Amor vincit omnia said:

Thank you for this!

  My hope is that someday I am looked at as the human person that I am and not frowned upon just because I am Gay! I am just a young adult who is trying to keep her relationship with Him afloat even though a lot of times I feel like running away from that. I am far from perfect, I make tons of mistakes, and He knows I sin but all I know is that I am loved by Him. 

 

Thank you for posting this! I seriously needed to read these words!

Be sure to hang around.  Most here will be great and will welcome you and patiently share their beliefs with you.   You'll be fine if you simply disagree.   When you say the Church is wrong, that is pulling the pin out of the grenade. 

[Guest]

Who is Metalhead? Lame they aren't man enough to post on their original account. Now that is GAY.

[Nihil Obstat]

3 hours ago, Amor vincit omnia said:

I do not believe that the Church agrees with/and supports how I have chose to live my life.

whhhaattttt 

Thanks for answering. So the obvious follow up for me to ask is whether or not you agree with the Church's own claims regarding Her authority to teach. And/ or whether or not you accept or reject what the Church teaches with regards to your own lifestyle.

To be clear, I really do not care one bit that you are sexually attracted to other women. But it seems to me that as an issue of mercy I must care about the question of your salvation in at least some appropriate sense, greatly unconnected to you though I may be.

1 hour ago, Josh said:

Who is Metalhead?    

Good question. Apparently it's super obvious to some people, but I have no idea. You should be polite.

[CatherineM]

My parent's marriage wasn't recognized by the Church. We were still baptized and attended Catholic school. They didn't take communion. They never tried to pretend that everything was perfect. They just did the best they could. Their marriage could have been fixed with a bit of paperwork. We couldn't afford it though. 

What you're doing is different. You are entitled to be treated with the same degree of human dignity as all of the rest of us. How two consenting adults decide to live their lives, is up to them, at least in countries where what you're doing is legal. Bringing a child into the equation is different. 

I'm glad you have had him baptized and that you are sharing the faith with him. I wish you'd have loved him enough to give him a father. I raised two boys in a two female home. Boy Scout leaders and little league coaches helped, but they weren't enough. Them not having a dad wasn't my fault. I would never have intentionally sentenced them to a dadless life. I was cleaning up someone else's mess. I hope your son has an easier time than my foster sons did. 

[Nihil Obstat]

23 minutes ago, CatherineM said:

My parent's marriage wasn't recognized by the Church. We were still baptized and attended Catholic school. They didn't take communion. They never tried to pretend that everything was perfect. They just did the best they could. Their marriage could have been fixed with a bit of paperwork. We couldn't afford it though. 

What you're doing is different. You are entitled to be treated with the same degree of human dignity as all of the rest of us. How two consenting adults decide to live their lives, is up to them, at least in countries where what you're doing is legal. Bringing a child into the equation is different. 

I'm glad you have had him baptized and that you are sharing the faith with him. I wish you'd have loved him enough to give him a father. I raised two boys in a two female home. Boy Scout leaders and little league coaches helped, but they weren't enough. Them not having a dad wasn't my fault. I would never have intentionally sentenced them to a dadless life. I was cleaning up someone else's mess. I hope your son has an easier time than my foster sons did. 

We do not agree terribly often these days, but that was well said.

[Amor vincit omnia]

2 hours ago, CatherineM said:

My parent's marriage wasn't recognized by the Church. We were still baptized and attended Catholic school. They didn't take communion. They never tried to pretend that everything was perfect. They just did the best they could. Their marriage could have been fixed with a bit of paperwork. We couldn't afford it though. 

What you're doing is different. You are entitled to be treated with the same degree of human dignity as all of the rest of us. How two consenting adults decide to live their lives, is up to them, at least in countries where what you're doing is legal. Bringing a child into the equation is different. 

I'm glad you have had him baptized and that you are sharing the faith with him. I wish you'd have loved him enough to give him a father. I raised two boys in a two female home. Boy Scout leaders and little league coaches helped, but they weren't enough. Them not having a dad wasn't my fault. I would never have intentionally sentenced them to a dadless life. I was cleaning up someone else's mess. I hope your son has an easier time than my foster sons did. 

Thank you for the comment CatherineM. But I will have to disagree with you about the whole father thing. I love my child enough to give him two loving parents and a loving big family. I had a dadless life because my father chose to leave but it wasn't a sentenced for me. I grew up just fine and my son will too. 

[franciscanheart]

2 hours ago, CatherineM said:

I'm glad you have had him baptized and that you are sharing the faith with him. I wish you'd have loved him enough to give him a father. I raised two boys in a two female home. Boy Scout leaders and little league coaches helped, but they weren't enough. Them not having a dad wasn't my fault. I would never have intentionally sentenced them to a dadless life. I was cleaning up someone else's mess. I hope your son has an easier time than my foster sons did. 

Catherine, do you actually believe that Lee does not love her son enough? Are you actually suggesting that she lacks in love for her son because she "didn't give him a father"?

[Maggyie]

46 minutes ago, franciscanheart said:

Catherine, do you actually believe that Lee does not love her son enough? Are you actually suggesting that she lacks in love for her son because she "didn't give him a father"?

It's a loss for a child to be separated from his/her biological relatives. Too often a narrative exists that children should be grateful (whether adoptees, donor offspring, etc). As someone who navigated infertility and adoption, I learned that it's important to acknowledge when families start with a loss. It doesn't take away from the love they have as a family. It means children don't have what they are entitled to: living with and/or knowledge of their bio family. The law in the US should definitely change in this regard. There's no real place for closed adoptions or anonymous donation. 

It's also very difficult for a child to grow up without a father or mother. the experience of having a mom or dad is irreplaceable as anyone who has lost them would tell you. Especially for a boy and his father or a girl and her mother. Again, it doesn't take anything away or mean they aren't good parents. It just means Lee can't give her son everything he deserves. 

Edited May 28, 2016 by Maggyie

[Guest]

One thing for sure is staying in a state of grace is really challenging 

[CatherineM]

1 hour ago, franciscanheart said:

Catherine, do you actually believe that Lee does not love her son enough? Are you actually suggesting that she lacks in love for her son because she "didn't give him a father"?

Having a child is a choice, even in "accidental" pregnancies. The exception are kids born from an act of rape. My parents loved us. They didn't love us enough to sacrifice to get their marriage fixed. My Dad loved me to the absolute infinity that he was capable of. Being human, he was broken, broken more than lots of people because of his life experiences. Therefore he wasn't capable of loving me enough to quit drinking as an example.

My Mom wasn't capable of loving me enough to be overtly affectionate. She could show her love doing things for us, but couldn't vocalize it.     Amor is also broken in her own way. That brokenness prevented her from truly understanding the importance of having a father for her child. I don't think it's a coincidence that she didn't have one herself. 

Saying someone didn't love their child enough to provide this or avoid that doesn't mean they don't in fact love their kids. I'm certainly not a perfect parent. I've made tons of mistakes, passed on some of the brokenness. Only God is a perfect parent.