Latin is making a comeback...especially in the secular

[DameAgnes]

http://aleteia.org/2016/05/18/latin-makes-a-comeback/

[Era Might]

I'm an etymology nerd so I frequently look up the roots of words to understand the history of ideas. E.g., yesterday I was reading something about Homer's Iliad which was discussing fate and character (Heraclitus said that character is fate), so I looked up fate and was happy to learn it also had a connection with the word fame...a person's fame, or character, is in a sense their fate, what they are doomed to be, which is why the Greeks (and others) valued honor and reputation so highly, and why they justified a 10 year war to defend the honor of Menelaus after the seduction of his wife Helen.

fate (n.) 

late 14c., "one's lot or destiny; predetermined course of life;" also "one's guiding spirit," from Old Frenchfatefata (source also of Spanish hado, Portuguese fado, Italian fato), neuter plural of fatum "prophetic declaration of what must be, oracle, prediction," thus the Latin word's usual sense, "that which is ordained, destiny, fate," literally "thing spoken (by the gods)," from neuter past participle of fari "to speak," from PIE *bha- (2) "speak" (seefame (n.)). 

From early 15c. as "power that rules destinies, agency which predetermines events; supernatural predetermination;" also "destiny personified." Meaning "that which must be" is from 1660s; sense of "final event" is from 1768. The Latin sense evolution is from "sentence of the Gods" (Greek theosphaton) to "lot, portion" (Greek moira, personified as a goddess in Homer). The sense "one of the three goddesses (Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos) who determined the course of a human life" is in English by 1580s. Often in a bad sense in Latin: "bad luck, ill fortune; mishap, ruin; a pest or plague." The native word in English was wyrd (see weird).

Edited May 18, 2016 by Era Might

[enitharmon]

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

so I looked up fate and was happy to learn it also had a connection with the word fame...a person's fame, or character, is in a sense their fate, what they are doomed to be

While I like your reasoning, the etymology of both words does not really suggest that. Both words are ultimately derived from the Proto Indo-European root *bha, "to speak" (Latin fari) because fate is "that which is spoken (by the gods)" and the English word fame is derived from Old French fame "fame, reputation, renown, rumor" (12c.), from Latin fama "talk, rumor, report" (to cite the etymological dictionary you referenced), i.e. what is spoken of you by the people. The former (fate) implies something that is fixed, because spoken by the gods before you act (or before the acts take fruition), the latter (fame) is what people tell of you after you have acted.
 

[Era Might]

15 minutes ago, enitharmon said:

While I like your reasoning, the etymology of both words does not really suggest that. Both words are ultimately derived from the Proto Indo-European root *bha, "to speak" (Latin fari) because fate is "that which is spoken (by the gods)" and the English word fame is derived from Old French fame "fame, reputation, renown, rumor" (12c.), from Latin fama "talk, rumor, report" (to cite the etymological dictionary you referenced), i.e. what is spoken of you by the people. The former (fate) implies something that is fixed, because spoken by the gods before you act (or before the acts take fruition), the latter (fame) is what people tell of you after you have acted.
 

I don't know that the words are so fixed as that. I'd say fame is not merely a judgement after the fact, but also a sentence that creates a situation in the present. Once you have a rep, or fame, that's who you have to be, it becomes part of your character. With a tragic hero like Achilles, for example, his fate was not merely a sentence from the gods, his fate was his fame as a hero, because a hero must live up to his fame. A contrast would be Jesus, who shunned fame lest he become what the people wanted him to be, rather than what the Father wanted him to be.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Era Might

[Era Might]

Another way to put it is that fate is the sentence of the gods, while fame is the sentence of men...but I think part of the complication explored by Homer and others is that it's hard to tell the difference between gods and men...literally, the gods appeared as men and acted through men.

[PhuturePriest]

I read an article a while back by a secular British journal saying the Latin Mass community is growing and thriving. It mentioned that the men in particular tend to wear tweed suits, and after looking up their prices, I determined Tridentine Massers are either rich, or they are old men reincarnated and thus know how to hand-craft tweed suits.

[truthfinder]

49 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

I read an article a while back by a secular British journal saying the Latin Mass community is growing and thriving. It mentioned that the men in particular tend to wear tweed suits, and after looking up their prices, I determined Tridentine Massers are either rich, or they are old men reincarnated and thus know how to hand-craft tweed suits.

I have the feeling they probably frequent the second-hand shops.

[Maximilianus]

Don't call it a comeback, it's been here for years.

[Luigi]

I hear that Latin's making a comeback even in pop music!

http://www.mentalfloss.com/article/77479/learn-sing-adeles-hello-latin

Who's next, Justin Bieber?

[CatherineM]

Harry Potter effect. 

[Gabriela]

Holy Spirit effect, I'd say.

 

[PhuturePriest]

21 hours ago, truthfinder said:

I have the feeling they probably frequent the second-hand shops.

Impossible. My dichotomy clearly illustrates there are only two possible answers.

[PhuturePriest]

2 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

Impossible. My dichotomy clearly illustrates there are only two possible answers.

This was my 16,500th post. I feel proud.

[Anomaly]

2 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

Impossible. My dichotomy clearly illustrates there are only two possible answers.

Excelentyay ointpay!

[Luigi]

35 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

This was my 16,500th post. I feel proud.

And of that 16,500, something like FOUR have been worthwhile.

 

But keep posting. Next up - 17,000, of which perhaps FIVE will have been worthwhile.