Maggyie Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Pope Francis? St. Francis? Xavier? Assisi? Frank's Pizza? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 (edited) People on Catholic reddit are getting their knickers in a twist and it's unsurprising. There were female deacons in the early church. Acts of the Apostles talks about Phoebe, a woman, who was a deacon. There's more than enough evidence that they were a thing. The question is whether or not they were ordained (specifically, had the "laying on of hands" in rites used to make them deacons). The evidence is ambiguous, so lots of people say "no" unless they find specific evidence of it. The other question is how they would function today. Back then, deacons were primarily a service ministry, so the apostles could spend more time preaching and teaching. Deacons helped during liturgical functions - baptizing people, etc. They served the poor, orphans, widows, etc. There were Orders of Widows who served the poor, too. Today, permanent deacons are a modern invention with deep roots in the early church. They're people meant for ministry, to serve the people, to help pastors so they can be free to do more of the things only priests can do. Permanent deacons don't become priests. That's really clear in our experience of them. Female deacons would also be a modern invention with deep roots in the early church. It's unlikely that they would be officially ordained (laying on of hands) because there's no irrefutable evidence of that. We don't know if they would function in the exact same way as male permanent deacons. In many ways, lay women already perform a lot of the things that deacons do and did in the church. They serve the poor, they teach, they lead communion services, they lead prayer services and other forms of communal prayer, they work at the diocesan level, they act as chancellors for the diocese, they run parishes in places with priest shortages, all sorts of things. I've been officially appointed to the "office" of advocate to help with tribunal work, with a special mandate, but I certainly wasn't ordained. We also have this new thing in the church called "Lay Ecclesial Ministers." People with special training that work in official capacities in the Church, are answerable to the ordained chain of command, doing work that at one time may have been reserved to priests and religious. We don't really have a theology of these people, even though they're an identifiable group in the Church. The majority of these people are women. So there are a lot of questions and things for the commission to consider, should Francis decide to actually form one and talk about it. Maybe he'll form a new kind of deaconate that gives LEMs a more official status in the Church. I think it's also important to point out that we STILL don't have a solid theology of masculinity that tells us exactly what about being a man makes one more suited for the ordination, even though our baptisms are the same (and no Christ was a man doesn't cut it, unless we can say whyyyy). Maybe this would help start answering that question. Maybe we'll end up with women acting exactly the same as Permanent Deacons do today... but I doubt it. People who just write off the question with "duh no it can't we must protect the maleness of the priesthood" are really missing the bigger picture. Establishing a new order of deaconnesses can mean a lot of things, and we don't know what it would mean, and that's the point of having a commission to start batting around possible answers. Edited May 12, 2016 by Basilisa Marie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 27 minutes ago, Basilisa Marie said: The Constitutiones Apostolorum, which appeared in Syria towards 380, used and interpolated the Didascalia, the Didache and the Traditio Apostolica. The Constitutiones were to have a lasting influence on the discipline governing ordinations in the East, even though they were never considered to be an official canonical collection. The compiler envisaged the imposition of hands with the epiklesis of the Holy Spirit not only for bishops, priests and deacons, but also for the deaconesses, sub-deacons and lectors (cf. CA 8, 16-23).63The concept of kleros Was broadened to all those who exercised a liturgical ministry, who were maintained by the Church, and who benefited from the privileges in civil law allowed by the Empire to clerics, so that the deaconesses were counted as belonging to the clergy while the widows were excluded. Bishop and priests were paralleled with the high priest and the priests respectively of the Old Covenant, while to the Levites corresponded all the other ministries and states of life: "deacons, lectors, cantors, door-keepers, deaconesses, widows, virgins and orphans" (CA 2, 26, 3; CA 8, 1, 21). The deacon was placed "at the service of the bishop and the priests" and should not impinge on the functions of the latter.64 The deacon could proclaim the Gospel and conduct the prayer of the assembly (CA 2, 57, 18), but only the bishop and the priests exhorted (CA 2, 57, 7). Deaconesses took up their functions through anepithesis cheirôn or imposition of hands that conferred the Holy Spirit,65 as did the lectors (CA 8, 20, 22). The bishop pronounced the following prayer: "Eternal God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, creator of man and woman, who filled Myriam, Deborah, Anne and Hulda with your spirit; who did not deem it unworthy for your Son, the Only-Begotten, to be born of a woman; who in the tent of witness and in the temple did institute women as guardians of your sacred doors, look now upon your servant before you, proposed for the diaconate: grant her the Holy Spirit and purify her of all defilement of flesh and spirit so that she may acquit herself worthily of the office which has been entrusted to her, for your glory and to the praise of your Christ, through whom be glory and adoration to you, in the Holy Spirit, world without end. Amen."66 The deaconesses were named before the sub-deacon who, in his turn, received a cheirotonialike the deacon (CA 8, 21), while the virgins and widows could not be "ordained" (8, 24-25). The Constitutiones insist that the deaconesses should have no liturgical function (3, 9, 1-2), but should devote themselves to their function in the community which was "service to the women" (CA 3, 16, 1) and as intermediaries between women and the bishop. It is still stated that they represent the Holy Spirit, but they "do nothing without the deacon" (CA 2, 26, 6). They should stand at the women's entrances in the assemblies (2, 57, 10). Their functions are summed up as follows: "The deaconess does not bless, and she does not fulfil any of the things that priests and deacons do, but she looks after the doors and attends the priests during the baptism of women, for the sake of decency" (CA 8, 28, 6). This is echoed by the almost contemporary observation of Epiphanius of Salamis in hisPanarion, in around 375: "There is certainly in the Church the order of deaconesses, but this does not exist to exercise the functions of a priest, nor are they to have any undertaking committed to them, but for the decency of the feminine sex at the time of baptism." 67A law of Theodosius of 21 June 390, revoked on 23 August of the same year, fixed the age for admission to the ministry of deaconesses at 60. The Council of Chalcedon (can. 15) reduced the age to 40, forbidding them subsequent marriage.68 Even in the fourth century the way of life of deaconesses was very similar to that of nuns. At that time the woman in charge of a monastic community of women was called a deaconess, as is testified by Gregory of Nyssa among others.69 Ordained abbesses of the monasteries of women, the deaconesses wore the maforion, or veil of perfection. Until the sixth century they still attended women in the baptismal pool and for the anointing. Although they did not serve at the altar, they could distribute communion to sick women. When the practice of anointing the whole body at baptism was abandoned, deaconesses were simply consecrated virgins who had taken the vow of chastity. They lived either in monasteries or at home. The condition for admission was virginity or widowhood and their activity consisted of charitable and health-related assistance to women. At Constantinople the best-known of the fourth-century deaconesses was Olympias, the superior of a monastery of women, who was a protegee of Saint John Chrysostom and had put her property at the service of the Church. She was "ordained" (cheirotonein) deaconess with three of her companions by the patriarch. Canon 15 of the Council of Chalcedon (451) seems to confirm the fact that deaconesses really were "ordained" by the imposition of hands (cheirotonia). Their ministry was called leitourgia and after ordination they were not allowed to marry. In eighth-century Byzantium, the bishop still imposed his hands on a deaconess, and conferred on her the orarion or stole (both ends of which were worn at the front, one over the other); he gave her the chalice, which she placed on the altar without giving communion to anyone. Deaconesses were ordained in the course of the Eucharistic liturgy, in the sanctuary, like deacons.70 Despite the similarities between the rites of ordination, deaconesses did not have access to the altar or to any liturgical ministry. These ordinations were intended mainly for the superiors of monasteries of women. It should be pointed out that in the West there is no trace of any deaconesses for the first five centuries. The Statuta Ecclesiae antiqua laid down that the instruction of women catechumens and their preparation for baptism was to be entrusted to the widows and women religious "chosen ad ministerium baptizandarum mulierum".71 Certain councils of the fourth and fifth centuries reject every ministerium feminae72 and forbid any ordination of deaconesses.73 According to the Ambrosiaster (composed at Rome at the end of the fourth century), the female diaconate was an adjunct of Montanist ("Cataphrygian") heretics.74 In the sixth century women admitted into the group of widows were sometimes referred to as deaconesses. To prevent any confusion the Council of Epaone forbade "the consecrations of widows who call themselves deaconesses".75 The Second Council of Orleans (533) decided to exclude from communion women who had "received the blessing for the diaconate despite the canons forbidding this and who had remarried".76 Abbesses, or the wives of deacons, were also called diaconissae, by analogy with presbyterissae or even episcopissae.77 The present historical overview shows that a ministry of deaconesses did indeed exist, and that this developed unevenly in the different parts of the Church. It seems clear that this ministry was not perceived as simply the feminine equivalent of the masculine diaconate. At the very least it was an ecclesial function, exercised by women, sometimes mentioned together with that of sub-deacon in the lists of Church ministries.78 Was this ministry conferred by an imposition of hands comparable to that by which the episcopate, the priesthood and the masculine diaconate were conferred? The text of the Constitutiones Apostolorum would seem to suggest this, but it is practically the only witness to this, and its proper interpretation is the subject of much debate.79 Should the imposition of hands on deaconesses be considered the same as that on deacons, or is it rather on the same level as the imposition of hands on sub-deacons and lectors? It is difficult to tackle the question on the basis of historical data alone. In the following chapters some elements will be clarified, and some questions will remain open. In particular, one chapter will be devoted to examining more closely how the Church through her theology and Magisterium has become more conscious of the sacramental reality of Holy Orders and its three grades. But first it is appropriate to examine the causes which led to the disappearance of the permanent diaconate in the life of the Church. THAT^ is from This: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_pro_05072004_diaconate_en.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 I'd sign up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sponsa-Christi Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 My thoughts on discussing the possibility of women deacons (from this past autumn): http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/in-lieu-of-female-deacons-a-proposal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 But. But. Jesus was a man! j/k I have not thought about it, but at first thought I would be supportive, as long as it does not contradict doctrine. At the very least, I think it is worth investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 I have it on the authority of a very solid theologian that there is precedence for deaconesses and so that is zero problem canonically, totally doable. Here's my solution for the Church's ills: 1. Devote priests entirely to the sacraments. Best-case scenario: Make 90% of them canons again, with a community of priests in most parishes, saying all the hours of the Office publicly, open to attendance by all. 2. Devote deacons entirely to preaching. Someone needs to put serious time and effort into that. 3. Devote deaconesses to the "social work" of the parish. 4. Devote religious to whatever their particular charism/apostolate is, including supporting priests, deacons, and/or deaconesses, where applicable. 5. Devote laity to making babies, funding the Church, learning from the first four, and carrying what they learn out into the nether-regions of the world, where the first four don't reach. Bam. Problems solved. Church restored. World saved. Hello, Jesus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 11 hours ago, Gabriela said: with a community of priests in most parishes lol you know it's a sad state when this is the part of your proposal that's the most incredible. Community of priests in each deanery instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 8 hours ago, Basilisa Marie said: lol you know it's a sad state when this is the part of your proposal that's the most incredible. Community of priests in each deanery instead? Nope, every parish. Believe, Basilisa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 16 hours ago, Gabriela said: Nope, every parish. Believe, Basilisa! it is the Jubilee Year of Mercy, after all… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not A Real Name Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 I believe peremitting deaconesses will just lead to an abuse of the role like what we've seen with Eucharistic Ministers. I think most will over exaggerate their functions which has happened in the past. Functions of a Deaconesses: There can be no doubt that in their first institution the deaconesses were intended to discharge those samecharitable offices, connected with the temporal well being of their poorer fellow Christians, which were performed for themen by the deacons. But in one particular, viz., the instruction and baptism of catechumens, their duties involved service of a more spiritual kind. Theuniversal prevalence of baptismby immersion and the anointingof the whole body which preceded it, rendered it a matter of propriety that in thisceremony the functions of thedeacons should be discharged by women. The Didascalia Apostolorum (III, 12; see Funk,Didascalia, etc., I, 208) explicitly direct that the deaconesses are to perform this function. It is probable that this was the starting point for the intervention of women in many other ritual observances even in the sanctuary. The Apostolic Constitutions expressly attribute to them the duty of guarding the doors and maintaining order amongst those of their own sex in the church, and they also (II, c. 26) assign to them the office ofacting as intermediaries between the clergy and thewomen of the congregation; but on the other hand, it is laid down (Const. Apost., VIII, 27) that "the deaconess gives no blessing, she fulfills no function of priestor deacon", and there can be nodoubt that the extravagances permitted in some places, especially in the churches ofSyria and Asia, were in contravention of the canonsgenerally accepted. We hear of them presiding over assemblies of women, reading the Epistleand Gospel, distributing theBlessed Eucharist to nuns, lighting the candles, burningincense in the thuribles, adorning the sanctuary, andanointing the sick (see Hefele-LeClercq, II, 448). All these things must be regarded as abuses which ecclesiasticallegislation was not long in repressing. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 11 hours ago, Not A Real Name said: I believe peremitting deaconesses will just lead to an abuse of the role like what we've seen with Eucharistic Ministers. I think most will over exaggerate their functions which has happened in the past. Functions of a Deaconesses: There can be no doubt that in their first institution the deaconesses were intended to discharge those samecharitable offices, connected with the temporal well being of their poorer fellow Christians, which were performed for themen by the deacons. But in one particular, viz., the instruction and baptism of catechumens, their duties involved service of a more spiritual kind. Theuniversal prevalence of baptismby immersion and the anointingof the whole body which preceded it, rendered it a matter of propriety that in thisceremony the functions of thedeacons should be discharged by women. The Didascalia Apostolorum (III, 12; see Funk,Didascalia, etc., I, 208) explicitly direct that the deaconesses are to perform this function. It is probable that this was the starting point for the intervention of women in many other ritual observances even in the sanctuary. The Apostolic Constitutions expressly attribute to them the duty of guarding the doors and maintaining order amongst those of their own sex in the church, and they also (II, c. 26) assign to them the office ofacting as intermediaries between the clergy and thewomen of the congregation; but on the other hand, it is laid down (Const. Apost., VIII, 27) that "the deaconess gives no blessing, she fulfills no function of priestor deacon", and there can be nodoubt that the extravagances permitted in some places, especially in the churches ofSyria and Asia, were in contravention of the canonsgenerally accepted. We hear of them presiding over assemblies of women, reading the Epistleand Gospel, distributing theBlessed Eucharist to nuns, lighting the candles, burningincense in the thuribles, adorning the sanctuary, andanointing the sick (see Hefele-LeClercq, II, 448). All these things must be regarded as abuses which ecclesiasticallegislation was not long in repressing. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm Priests and deacons have abused their role, too. Unfortunately this is not something that can be avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not A Real Name Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 1 hour ago, HisChildForever said: Priests and deacons have abused their role, too. Unfortunately this is not something that can be avoided. While it can't be avoided in every case, it can be avoided in this one by not allowing deaconesses. Let's face it, there is no longer a need for them. The women in the laity can do, and already do, most of the functions listed above. This is all a push for a title in the hopes that one day there will be women's ordination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 I have to agree that, in my experience, may women who wish to be deaconesses wish to be so because they think it will lead to women's ordination as priests. And that being so, if deaconesses are reinstituted in the Church, I should hope that it will not happen for several more decades, to allow a *certain generation* of Catholics to die off first. I do fear that, were it to happen today, the majority of deaconesses would pursue that vocation for very wrong reasons, and I doubt very much that the Church has the capacity (or knowledge) at present to properly screen applicants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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