You really should watch this Vortex

[Basilisa Marie]

Probably not super suitable for kiddos (he talks about the specific nature of his sexual sins) so move if need be, but I really feel this gives a LOT of insight into why Michael Voris is the way he is. 

This really helped me feel more charitable thoughts toward him. 

 

http://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/limiting-god

[Guest]

Prayers for Voris. Isn't presumption a sin? Or is that only when you presume you will go to Heaven? He says he knows he would burn in hell for all of eternity if he had died. Does he really know that? Or perhaps God would have cleansed him through purgatory. I get what he is saying. He was leading a life worthy of hell and he deserved it if he died at the moment. Seems like this is the case a lot of the times. That is a person get shown so much grace and mercy from God while they were living horrible lives. So once they get their life together (or at least together enough not to cause public scandal) they want to beat people over the head with the law and doctrine and threaten people with hell. I'm guilty too. God just called me out on this the other day. And I'm in the midst of my own trials right now. For just a second I was feeling holier than another sinner who I do the same thing as because I go to Confession and God forgives me. So for just a second I thought that made me better and God made it clear I'm worse because I sit and judge the person I commit the same sins as. I also get hell is real and it's possible to go there. It just really pushes people away when someone acts as obnoxious as Voris has in the past and here he lived this lifestyle. I'm not judging him and he has my sincere prayers. This is just the same old story though with religious fanatics. And I shouldn't word it like that but I don't know. Gonna say a prayer for this guy right now. May God have mercy on all horrible sinners especially me. 

Edited April 22, 2016 by Guest

[PhuturePriest]

3 hours ago, Josh said:

Prayers for Voris. Isn't presumption a sin? Or is that only when you presume you will go to Heaven? He says he knows he would burn in hell for all of eternity if he had died. Does he really know that? Or perhaps God would have cleansed him through purgatory. I get what he is saying. He was leading a life worthy of hell and he deserved it if he died at the moment. Seems like this is the case a lot of the times. That is a person get shown so much grace and mercy from God while they were living horrible lives. So once they get their life together (or at least together enough not to cause public scandal) they want to beat people over the head with the law and doctrine and threaten people with hell. I'm guilty too. God just called me out on this the other day. And I'm in the midst of my own trials right now. For just a second I was feeling holier than another sinner who I do the same thing as because I go to Confession and God forgives me. So for just a second I thought that made me better and God made it clear I'm worse because I sit and judge the person I commit the same sins as. I also get hell is real and it's possible to go there. It just really pushes people away when someone acts as obnoxious as Voris has in the past and here he lived this lifestyle. I'm not judging him and he has my sincere prayers. This is just the same old story though with religious fanatics. And I shouldn't word it like that but I don't know. Gonna say a prayer for this guy right now. May God have mercy on all horrible sinners especially me. 

If you are living in mortal sin, you will go to hell. It's not presumption because the Church teaches this very clearly, just as it teaches that it isn't a sin to say that if you die in the state of grace you will go to heaven.

[Era Might]

Religion and gangs have a similar dynamic, people use them to run away from something, ultimately from themselves, and the harder the person goes, the more "real" they claim to be, you know the faker they are. Nobody has to be faker than the Real member. The church or the gang becomes the great mission to die for, but what is that? It's a death wish disguised as nobility. It's not hard to see that there's something not right with someone like Voris...probably nobody is duped by himself more than himself. Anyway, I don't care about his personal life, just let it be a lesson not to be more Catholic than the Pope (figuratively speaking).

[Basilisa Marie]

I have seriously doubts about the authenticity of the claims about New York (sounds more like paranoia), but the fact that he made this video took some guts, and I really believe it explains soooooo much about why he's so... the way he is. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

If you are living in mortal sin, you will go to hell. It's not presumption because the Church teaches this very clearly, just as it teaches that it isn't a sin to say that if you die in the state of grace you will go to heaven.

Why do saints teach at the time of death God gives you one last chance to choose him? I don't know how many times I've read that. Also addiction and culpability would play into whether or not Virus would of went to hell.

Just now, Era Might said:

Religion and gangs have a similar dynamic, people use them to run away from something, ultimately from themselves, and the harder the person goes, the more "real" they claim to be, you know the faker they are. Nobody has to be faker than the Real member. The church or the gang becomes the great mission to die for, but what is that? It's a death wish disguised as nobility. It's not hard to see that there's something not right with someone like Voris...probably nobody is duped by himself more than himself. Anyway, I don't care about his personal life, just let it be a lesson not to be more Catholic than the Pope (figuratively speaking).

Well said.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Guest

[PhuturePriest]

43 minutes ago, Josh said:

Why do saints teach at the time of death God gives you one last chance to choose him? I don't know how many times I've read that. Also addiction and culpability would play into whether or not Virus would of went to hell.

Well said.

If one has committed a mortal sin, he may be forgiven outside the sacrament through perfect contrition -- that is, sorrow for one's sins solely because they offended God and not out of fear of hell.

Addiction only plays into his later mortal sins. He was not addicted when he first committed them. Therefore, they were mortally sinful, regardless if the later ones were.

And I'm not saying this to attack Michael, by any means. I'm not saying anything he wouldn't and hasn't. I can testify that I myself would have gone straight to hell if I died when I was 13. Like Michael, I knew fully that what I was doing was wrong and why, but did it anyway.

[Guest]

Just now, PhuturePriest said:

I can testify that I myself would have gone straight to hell if I died when I was 13. Like Michael, I knew fully that what I was doing was wrong and why, but did it anyway.

The Catechism blatantly says culpability is/can be reduced to nil when sins become habit or addiction or because of passion. Or stuff going on mentally. This is real important to state especially when 13 year olds like your old self think they are going/were going to burn in hell for all of eternity because of masturbation. And I've read from Saints immediately after death God gives you one last chance to choose him. I've read that multiple times. Not saying it's true but I've read it a lot on Catholic sites.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Guest

[PhuturePriest]

20 hours ago, Josh said:

The Catechism blatantly says culpability is/can be reduced to nil when sins become habit or addiction or because of passion. Or stuff going on mentally. This is real important to state especially when 13 year olds like your old self think they are going/were going to burn in hell for all of eternity because of masturbation. And I've read from Saints immediately after death God gives you one last chance to choose him. I've read that multiple times. Not saying it's true but I've read it a lot on Catholic sites.

It can be reduced due to habit or addiction. However, I committed those sins long before they became addictive with full knowledge of their sinfulness.

No matter how unpleasant it is, we have the full capability of choosing to cut ourselves off from God and send ourselves to hell. The state of mortal sin is not an unknown -- either you're in it or you're not, and if you're in it, you know.

Anyway, this is all seriously derailing what is a very important thread.

A shock came to be about this when I learned Father Paul Nicholson denounced Michael and CM for this. Father Paul worked alongside Michael for many years, and they were very good friends. For him to do this to Michael in a great time of need is very serious, and I hope he had grave reason for doing so.

[Ash Wednesday]

I didn't even bat an eye when I heard about all of this -- and I don't think he was totally wrong for not going into detail about his past life. I certainly don't hold it against him. If someone says they lived a hedonistic life in their past, generally you just take their word for it and don't ask for details. Whether it was the Archdiocese or not, presumably somebody out there was going to spread information, so I'm glad Voris was able to go public ahead of time on his own terms, and not someone else's. 

[Ice_nine]

well, that made me really uncomfortable.

[Not A Real Name]

On 4/22/2016, 7:38:16, Era Might said:

Religion and gangs have a similar dynamic, people use them to run away from something, ultimately from themselves, and the harder the person goes, the more "real" they claim to be, you know the faker they are. Nobody has to be faker than the Real member. The church or the gang becomes the great mission to die for, but what is that? It's a death wish disguised as nobility. It's not hard to see that there's something not right with someone like Voris...probably nobody is duped by himself more than himself. Anyway, I don't care about his personal life, just let it be a lesson not to be more Catholic than the Pope (figuratively speaking).

IMO, most people who join gangs do so to have a sense of family and community. In a gang this is expressed imperfectly. In the Catholic Church, Christ, it is expressed perfectly. Gangs abandon you. Christ does not. 

[Luigi]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2016‎ ‎9‎:‎38‎:‎16‎, Era Might said:

Religion and gangs have a similar dynamic, people use them to run away from something, ultimately from themselves, and the harder the person goes, the more "real" they claim to be, you know the faker they are. Nobody has to be faker than the Real member. The church or the gang becomes the great mission to die for, but what is that? It's a death wish disguised as nobility. It's not hard to see that there's something not right with someone like Voris...probably nobody is duped by himself more than himself. Anyway, I don't care about his personal life, just let it be a lesson not to be more Catholic than the Pope (figuratively speaking).

I disagree. The above sounds like a Facebook meme - emotionally satisfying but too shallow and general to be accurate.

Religion, properly practiced, helps you discover yourself and become the best "you" you're capable of being. So you really can't run away from yourself in a church, if you're doing it right. For example, confession is basically the same thing as AA's fearless moral inventory; you say your sins out loud to another person rather than remain in denial; the confessor or spiritual director can push you to explore yourself and your motivations more deeply, and so forth. You're supposed to work on developing virtues rather than vices. Retreats are supposed to be not only intensive encounters with God but also with yourself.  

Admittedly, there are people who do church incorrectly, but I'd say that applies to everything - there are people who do school incorrectly, or the Marines, or marriage, or motherhood, or anything else you can name. But, as AA says, if you work the (church) program, the program works.

And I agree with Ash Wednesday - Voris shouldn't have to confess his sins publicly (nor should any of the rest of us), and it took a lot of guts on his part to do so in the video. As a church, we do believe in repentance and conversion (everyone smile and nod, please). If Voris has repented and been converted, then what's done is over and done. But I've always heard that reformed sinners (or smokers, or drinkers, or whatever) can be less tolerant of those still doing what The Reformed used to do - Voris may have a strong case of that.

[Era Might]

5 hours ago, Not A Real Name said:

IMO, most people who join gangs do so to have a sense of family and community. In a gang this is expressed imperfectly. In the Catholic Church, Christ, it is expressed perfectly. Gangs abandon you. Christ does not. 

Fr. Greg Boyle, a Jesuit priest in LA who has spent his life working with gang members, often remarks that he has never met a gang member who didn't join a gang to escape something. It's never a positive affirmation of life. Of course, the same is not true of religion (Fr. Boyle is a great example of the positive side of religion), but I think religion does function the same way as gangs do, which is why Jesus spent his ministry condemning the religious establishment and the professional religionists. Religion gives an Identity foreign to one's personal identity (Fr. Boyle tells a funny story about trying to get a gang member to tell his real name, what his grandmother calls him, not the names he uses as masks). And it's undeniable that in the Middle Ages and other periods Christianity gave people an outlet to kill and pillage, it was a divinely sanctioned gang for many. And I don't say that as a cheap shot against religion, just the opposite, I think people who get into religion and imagine themselves as a True Believer are often sad or scary...and often, one has to go through such masks and self-delusions to get at true religion...to help orphans and widows, to show mercy and not sacrifice, etc. The same is true of gangs...the only people who really know what the heart of a gang member is all about is someone who has lived that life, and they are the only hope there is to reach people, just as a humbled saint can do great things for those who are still in the self-delusions of religion. But as long as someone like Voris builds a career on being a True Believer, I think the fruit will speak for itself...even St. Paul had to prove his boasting in whips and chains, lest he think he was something when in fact he was nothing.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Era Might