Monastic Life

[Maggyie]

Ah the cake analogy allows me to bring up my favorite metaphor, Love Is Not A Pie. Meaning, there are no big slices or little slices. It is not a limited or quantifiable resource. 

It is true though that some saints are more glorious than others. But I wouldn't say that this is a difference in God's love for them, but differing capacities in those being loved to reflect out the glory.  

St Therese gives the metaphor of roses and violets and how both are necessary. Forgive me but this is one reason I sometimes think of Therese as a bit of a pill, because she runs on about how she is a violet and a little nothing, all the while she's the rosiest rose of all and she even sends roses as a sign. Like really "Little" Flower??? Let me tell you how it is. Real violet talk time. 

[BarbTherese]

29 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

Ah the cake analogy allows me to bring up my favorite metaphor, Love Is Not A Pie. Meaning, there are no big slices or little slices. It is not a limited or quantifiable resource. 

It is true though that some saints are more glorious than others. But I wouldn't say that this is a difference in God's love for them, but differing capacities in those being loved to reflect out the glory.  

St Therese gives the metaphor of roses and violets and how both are necessary. Forgive me but this is one reason I sometimes think of Therese as a bit of a pill, because she runs on about how she is a violet and a little nothing, all the while she's the rosiest rose of all and she even sends roses as a sign. Like really "Little" Flower??? Let me tell you how it is. Real violet talk time. 

Smiling at the St Therese comment.  I know Carmelite nuns that feel similarly to you about her.  C'est la vie - one man's meat, another's poison, I think it goes.

There had to be something remarkable about her since her fellow nuns who had lived shoulder to shoulder with her for eight years thought of her as "a good Carmelite nun, but nothing special".  It wasn't until her autobiography shortly before her death that they realised the truth about her.

St Therese was raised in a loving family and she was the youngest and was spoilt she admits herself and where we "are coming from" will speak to our now somehow or other whether we realise it or not.  I think the language she does use is very 'flowery and treacle like' (to me) and at first it all turned me right off until I began to try to understand the dynamic or the reasoning behind the language she did use and I think this was moreso after she was declared a Doctor of The Church and I heard an expert on her life (priest and theologian) give a talk.  I think her language reflected the spiritual works and type of "holy-thinking if you are holy" type of thing of her times in French Catholic cultural circles.....something like that.  I do love the great simplicity of her Little Way which speaks to all about living a very ordinary type of life in every way - making it an extra-ordinary life only by the motivations behind the very ordinary and every day.  That opens up holiness and sanctity to all without exemption.

I chose St Therese as my Confirmation patron not knowing anything really about her.  I chose her because images of her were a nun, she had flowers and a crucifix - but most of all she was smiling at me.  The other factor in my choice was I could have a real pic of a real saint.

But don't mind me!  I am a die-impossible fan of St Therese and I have never 'received a rose' from her.  I have only asked for one once it occurs to me.............and still waiting.  Obviously I am off the track somewhere which I never doubt at all.............but what is probably quite obvious, my doubts about my thinking never prevents me sprouting what I am thinking.  I like to think anyway that I would change my thinking if I thought I should.  I hope so.

6 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

But I wouldn't say that this is a difference in God's love for them, but differing capacities in those being loved to reflect out the glory.  

What an excellent description.  I hope I will remember it and give you the credit.

It strikes me as so really appropriate, because it is God's Love in the person that "reflects out the glory" and nothing to do with individualism and some sort of 'owned or possessed glory' of the person shining out.  It is not the person's glory, it is God's Love that is the shining out Glory.

I really like what you have written........thank you

Edited April 24, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

2 hours ago, Gabriela said:

I think that either view on the matter can derive from pride or humility. One might think, "It's not possible God loves someone else more than me, because I'm so wonderful." Or it's possible to think, "God does love me than others, cuz I'm less of a sinner than them." I think it's even possible one might believe God loves others more and oneself less because one has a prideful view of one's own humility. And in my experience, quantitative thinking often also leads into pride, a sense that one knows things one doesn't really. So all this stuff is bound up together. Pride and humility are really messy things, and I doubt we even know the state of our own hearts when it comes to them; God only knows.

Bold and red in the above are mine.

Really good comments it struck me.  I knew I had read them, could not remember where at first. 

Gabriela : Pride and humility are really messy things, and I doubt we even know the state of our own hearts when it comes to them; God only knows.

Well said.

[BarbTherese]

@Maggyie  I have filed your explanation re the Glory of God (Second para in Maggyie's Post) giving you the credit.  Thank you once again.

 I feel I that my understanding has increased, or become a bit less muddled, because of posters' comments and the whole thread to me is worth filing and has been filed.

[Egeria]

Barbara Therese, I don't for a minute doubt that you were told such things by monastics, but I would like to emphasize as strongly as possible that this is not the monastic tradition. It may be the result of late medieval "mystical" traditions, or, (perhaps more likely) Counter-Reformation Catholic spirituality, but it is not monastic. In fact, it seems the direct opposite of what Saint Benedict teaches in Chapter Seven of his Rule - and you can't get anything more authoritative than that for the monastic tradition in the West. It also strikes me as directly counter to the teachings of the Desert Fathers, who are again fundamental to any understanding of monasticism. Witness this saying that was repeated lest any of them get illusions of grandeur:

It was revealed to Abba Anthony in his desert that there was one who was his equal in the city. He was a doctor by profession and whatever he had beyond his needs he gave to the poor, and every day he sang the Sanctus with the angels.

Having said that, I also think that Sponsa makes a valid point, and that obsessing about these things (whether to affirm or deny them) can be a form of pride.

[BarbTherese]

Thank you, Egeria.  I did make a statement in an earlier post that I did not feel at all and very strongly that what I experienced applied to all religious and monastic communities and I firmly believe this. Perhaps you did not read my second post into this thread.   I know a fair few religious and nuns - who do not at all think along those lines quite to the contrary in fact.  As I also said, to me in the community I entered, they were holy and joyful women (doesn't mean they were faultless) and that I was the very square peg in their midst in quite a few ways.  But what was said at recreation time finished me with personal struggling -  rightly or wrongly and I left.  Fait accompli now.  I saw some of their faults and as I said earlier too, doubtless they saw some of mine.

32 minutes ago, Egeria said:

Having said that, I also think that Sponsa makes a valid point, and that obsessing about these things (whether to affirm or deny them) can be a form of pride.

I can't find where she said that but she may have - anyway I agree no contest from me.  I guess "obsessing" is a judgement call with "can be a form of pride" operative.    Insofar as I am concerned, I am just interested in the subjects raised and as important subjects within this thread and even further afield (and will continue to do so as long as the thread stays alive) and it could be judged obsessing and so be it......it might even be judged pride too and so be it.....although you might not have been addressing me personally making a general comment as Sponsa did.  I'll be bringing it all up with my state of soul with my SD on Wednesday (priest and religious) and he will guide me.  Doubtless absolutely, he will see my state of soul far clearer than I can - he usually does.  He is also my confessor and that is very good for me too.

So very much can be a form of pride depending on attitude and perspective.  I no longer do something that is good, than I fall into spiritual pride by telling myself I have done good and being pleased with myself not that that is wrong, but when it is spiritual pride it is indeed wrong.  I take courage and perseverance from St Therese.  Good news had arrived at her monastery.  She wanted to rush to her sister (then prioress) and be the first Sister to tell her.  Rather than do that, she rushed to her cell and there hugged herself with joy for doing a good act and not indulging herself.  That is not spiritual pride and jolly good example I think of allowing oneself room for growth without guilt trips.  I try to be patient with myself in the hope that where I am now will not be where I am somewhere further down the road, not that I have all that much further to travel perhaps.  Sometimes I have a win, sometimes a loss.  I don't keep count - I can't.  Today yesterday is gone and tomorrow a mystery.  We change and we grow......... I hope for myself anyway.  Meanwhile, on Phatmass anyway for one, I share my thoughts. Amen.

I have a favourite story from the desert fathers I have cause to very often repeat.  A young monk had done something quite serious and was banned from choir for a month.  After a few days, the abbot's council noticed that the abbot was absent as well.  Thinking he might be unwell they approached him in his cell.  His response was "I too am a sinner".  The story nowadays rather reminds me of Pope Francis's well known reply to reporters:  "Who am I to judge?"

 

 

Just as a footnote: It is time for bed for me as it is 8.30pm in South Australia. 

[BarbTherese]

Something just occurred to me  -  I think it was St Teresa of Avila who wrote to be always ready to think more of others and less of oneself - to be stern on yourself and gentle on all.  Not that I am claiming at all that that reflects me - oh not at all ............ underscored.  Rather it connects to me with what St Benedict says about humility and I know I have read his steps to humility before somewhere.  This is the beautiful thing about our saints - they all very often say the very same thing only differently.........and rightly so when I think about it.

 

[Egeria]

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Thank you, Egeria.  I did make a statement in an earlier post that I did not feel at all and very strongly that what I experienced applied to all religious and monastic communities and I firmly believe this. Perhaps you did not read my second post into this thread.   I know a fair few religious and nuns - who do not at all think along those lines quite to the contrary in fact.

Yes, I did read this and fully believe you. However, my point is not just that it is not true of all monastics, but that it is an aberration of monastic life. And so to see it discussed under the heading "Monastic Life" concerns me. (I cannot speak for religious life more broadly, and it may indeed be true of later traditions).

[BarbTherese]

9 hours ago, Egeria said:

Yes, I did read this and fully believe you. However, my point is not just that it is not true of all monastics, but that it is an aberration of monastic life. And so to see it discussed under the heading "Monastic Life" concerns me. (I cannot speak for religious life more broadly, and it may indeed be true of later traditions).

Thank you for your post again, Egeria.

I can hear what you are saying and my choice of subject heading was misleading to those who may not have read another post exchange in another forum. It did not occur to me until the thread had got underway that some members may not have read that other exchange.  Since that other thread did not seem to be influencing posters into this thread, I let it be - until your post.  I did hope that my second post into the thread would make things clear about an isolated experience and my actual attitude to religious and monastic life.  I totally agree that the statement at recreation was an aberration from monastic life and I felt at the time that the attitude expressed was NOT AT ALL a universal one throughout monastic and religious life.  In fact I felt at the time the attitude was a departure from The Gospel. In my experience (I am now heading towards 71yrs of age and a lifelong Catholic, raised in a Catholic home and educated lifelong by religious) I had never ever heard of such an attitude before and prior to entering I did know priests, religious and nuns and some of them very well indeed.  The comment made at recreation was a really jarring experience for me and at a time when I was jarred already.

I do not think for one moment that such an attitude is throughout "later traditions" or a fixed attitude in all religious orders in the West (I looked at your profile and I see that you are Eastern Orthodox).  In fact I am confident in stating it most definitely IS NOT.  It has occurred to me that the recreation statement might have been a novice still in the learning and formation process, although I was interiorly questioning formation too in what I had experienced of it.  It is very important to note, I think, that it was simply one person's experience (mine) of one community at one point in time.  Certainly I lapsed into silence after the comment and all others did also.  In other words, the comment was not challenged insofar as I am aware anyway.  That, of course, does not mean at all that it was never challenged, perhaps privately it was.  I do not know.  I did feel very strongly that if I remained in that community I would indeed become a disturbing factor to all and another reason why I left. A disturbing factor in a community is not conducive to contemplative monastic life.  I had already noticed that our sacristan (particularly holy) was concerned about me.   I was disturbed and concerned  about a few things - while the recreation comment became icing on the cake - a straw that broke this camel's back.  It needs to be stated that the fault could well have been mine.   As I said, they were certainly joyful and holy religious.  And one can certainly be a good and holy person with faults and failings, even perhaps major ones. The lives of our saints tell us this quite clearly - and thankfully so for me. And my general experiences with priests, religious and nuns is that most all are committed, dedicated and faithful, holy men and women in important vocations - I had never heard such an attitude from any of them, some I knew exceptionally well over a long period.  Some I still maintain contact with some 20 years further down the line.

We all have faults and failings, or I certainly do - and where that particular community is now, I would not know since I have not stayed in contact with them for quite some time.  They may have moved on.   After leaving I corresponded via letter and phone with my novice mistress for a while and I did send her a book that I hoped might give her pause to reflect.  We are all on a journey and we all change and grow.  Not unusual in a community for the attitudes of leadership to prevail while a change of leadership, as does regularly usually occur in religious and monastic life, can even radically change a community and its' direction.

I would be terribly loathe and mortified - near on horrified it occurs to me - to have you thinking that such an attitude is a prevailing one in western religious and monastic communities - and because of something I had posted.  My experience, outside of one only monastic experience and for a quite short period, is that such an attitude most definitely DOES NOT prevail at all.  And for all I know does not prevail in my previous monastic community either.

I was angry - in a 'fighting' mood (fight or flight) -  when I initiated this thread as comments had been made publicly about me in another forum on a personal level that were not true at all.  Not a good move at all to write something quite public while angry as our Phatmass guidelines point out.  Now I am reaping the consequences in having confused another member and on a very important subject.  I am hoping that you can now understand things differently and are quite reassured that the attitude expressed at recreation is NOT endemic in monastic or religious life at all, well certainly not to my experience of quite a few members of religious and monastic communities.  My personal monastic journey was only one journey in one community at one period in time and as such very limited experience indeed.  Other than that, we are just not going to find the perfect this side of Heaven - not anywhere nor with anyone at all.  Short of a miracle, that is.  

  My sincere apologies.

 

PS and edit:  I think that the thread moved very quickly from my personal experience in monastic life - on to the subject of God's Love generally and not focused on religious or monastic life.  It is the general subject of God's Love that I find personally interesting.  That does not at all cancel out what I have written above.

[BarbTherese]

I have read back over some of your others posts in other threads and forums, Egeria - and I am more confident now that you are probably not confused about the state of monastic life in the West because of this thread. I was concerned about you.  I do feel too that if other readers or lurkers read on in the thread they will see that I hold religious and monastic life in high esteem and even that I hold the nuns in the community I left in high esteem as well.   There have been threads in the past about experiences in monastic life that have not been the best of experiences.  I have always felt that such threads are speaking of only one experience in one community at one period of time and such to me does seem like a normal and reasonable,logical conclusion.  I have never concluded that such experiences are endemic in religious or monastic life.  I have also strongly felt that who was at fault was not really clearly apparent (without making public comments) - and who was at fault includes me with my own experiences............and there was much more than the recreation experience and I would never deny that I was never at fault somewhere.  My monastic journey is not useless baggage I carry around with me, while it is a memory I may take out of that filing cabinet we call memory now and then for some reason.

I do regret the title I chose for this thread, however.  And I chose OpenMic as the Forum to distance myself from the Vocations Forum out of respect for that forum.  I also chose to address another member via private message rather than to criticise that person publicly.  I do try, but that does not mean at all that I don't sometimes fail............failure does not at all surprise me and another area where I do try is not to go on useless and unproductive guilt trips.  I am a broken and weak creature and failure is almost intrinsic.

[BarbTherese]

Sitting outside on an incredibly beautiful ANZAC Day here in Sth Aussie, when it occurred to me that I cannot speak for ALL religious and monastic orders in Australia, though we do not have all that many.  But certainly I have over 70yrs of Catholicism under my belt with associations with priests, religious and nuns along the way and have never come across the attitude and perspective expressed during my personal monastic journey............just to dot my i's and cross my t's.