Monastic Life

[BarbTherese]

 

Now I AM coming from personal experience:

There are a few reasons I left monastic life.  Cardinal among those reasons was the fact that I did not and could not view myself as "especially loved by God" as I was expected to do.  I felt and feel strongly that we are all equally loved and beloved by God and why He calls one to this way of life or vocation - or to that way of life and vocation is a mystery.  It has nothing to do with one person being loved in a more special way than another.  I struggled with that in monastic life, which was the prevailing attitude (until I thought the statement right through, while they stopped short).  But what decided me finally to leave was recreation time.  We were not allowed to read newspapers, even Catholic newspapers.  Our prioress would read what she felt was appropriate for us.  One day not all that long before I left, she read about a missionary religious murdered in a missionary country, along with other local men and women.  We were asked to pray for the religious and I raised the subject of the men and women also murdered and prayers for them too.  The reply was "But she was a nun!".  After that I began to seriously consider leaving rather than treating my doubts as temptations.

The above IS coming from my personal experience......and as such it is quite limited experience and it is not the first time I have stated on Phatmass that my personal experiences are "LIMITED experiences".  I am not stating at all that religious hold generally that they are "especially loved by God" except in the sense that, mysterious perhaps to us, God loves every single person in a very special way that is at once an equal love of all.  But if I proclaim that God especially loves some, without pointing out that that is at the same time an equal especial love of all as individuals, then I am conveying incomplete information with an inaccurate implication and a problem of language used.

Now, the above is no knee jerk reaction in case some might jump to incorrect conclusions about me personally.  Rather, as I often do, I have written the above and then gone off and prayed as to whether I should post.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I delete the post and forget it, while sometimes I decide not to post but to file what I have written.  Why I wrote all the above coming from my personal experience is to convey the whole truth that God loves every single person in a quite special and individual way and at the very same time loves all equally.  It is impossible for God who is Perfection to love one person less or more than another.  His Love is always Perfect Love of all His creatures individually - and how could it logically be else?

Jesus does not choose to be incarnated into the highest and the best, rather He chooses what is lowly and poor, the commoner.  In this way has the last become first and the first, last.  I never lived so well as I did in monastic life.  Everything I needed was at my fingertips without any personal effort, other than a need to ask.  I had never eaten so well nor lived in such a magnificent environment.........and without any personal effort whatsoever.  I never had had all my needs so immediate with only a need to ask.  In one way it was rightful, in another - it was concerning to me.

 

 

[Era Might]

So you discovered that many people flee the world, but few leave it behind.

[BarbTherese]

53 minutes ago, Era Might said:

So you discovered that many people flee the world, but few leave it behind.

Sure - I never left the world behind either - but I had never felt that I should.

If anything I discovered that some are fleeing the world and abandoning it other than in patronising and condescending attitudes.   It MUST be stated that it was only my LIMITED experience of one community at one particular space in time.  Truth of the matter for my own part was that I had left a very busy run around type of life to enter monastic life.  I realised after entering (and another reason I left) that what I was doing was running away from that busy life and I subsequently returned to it.  I did have a very real attraction to monastic life and I learnt much from it and brought it back with me to my run around lifestyle and that lifestyle improved because of my monastic journey.......... I just had no vocation to monastic life per se in the particular community I entered.  There was no opportunity here in Australia to enter another monastic community to my knowledge then (I was in my early forties), but soon after I returned back to Bethany things started to move along for me with Bethany as a way of life and out of the doldrums - and I never considered monastic life again.  I doubt absolutely that I ever had a monastic vocation or religious vocation in the first place.

Not all that long into my monastic journey and I started to realise other things about monastic life as it was in the community I had then entered.  Undoubtedly, I could see some of their faults..........and doubtless for sure they could see mine.  I left by my own volition and was not asked to leave the community.  They were quite joyful and holy women - I was the very square peg.

Because one has faults and failings, it does not mean one is not holy.  I read somewhere saints are sinners who don't give up.  And a read of Father James Martin's (Jesuit) book "Between Heaven and Mirth" http://www.amazon.com/Between-Heaven-Mirth-Laughter-Spiritual/dp/0062024256 has endless funny stories about our saints, for one, some of their faults and failings - their sense of the funny.  Another good read is "Men in The Bible - The Good The Bad and The Ugly" - it is not dogma nor doctrine, but a thought provoking read anyway.

[Gabriela]

I agree with you BarbaraTherese that everyone is equally loved by God. To say some are more loved sounds Calvinist to me. I find it appalling and arrogant. It disgusts me.

I'd have left, too. I'm just glad you've found such positivity and peace after your return!  

[BarbTherese]

Thank you, Gabriella, very much.  It really is very kind to say what you have. They really were dedicated and holy women in the community I entered - I could neither be like them and fit in, nor live like them in some aspects of their community life.   As I said, I found things about them quite screwy to me and doubtless they found the same about me, nor would they be alone in that.

I have never doubted that I did the right thing in leaving and yes, I subsequently found (a journey) a knowledge of and confidence in my own vocation as coming from Jesus to me quite personally and absolute Peace and Joy in it.  Sure I have the ups and downs of life like all, sometimes outright disturbing down times and if saints are sinners who don't give up - then I sure am a sinner who refuses to give up to date - although saint in my connection really makes me laugh.   In fact if anyone directed saint at me (and impossible to those who do know me) I would be at pains to disillusion them any way possible as quickly as possible.  It would present a standard to live up to (related stereotyping) -  and an impossible standard for me.....I detest titles!.....as Bob Dylan wrote "they all want me to be like them, while I just want to be myself" (or similar)... but no matter what life chucks at me that rocks my boat to date and I sure have traversed some terribly stormy seas in the past, I always return after the journey to the same place of knowledge, confidence, Peace and Joy and the common denominator of my overall journey thanks be to Grace and God's Gracious Patience................nor am I alone I know thankfully......just one of the crew and we were a motely crew right from the beginning and we still are and will continue as such until the story ends.

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Sponsa-Christi]

On 4/21/2016, 8:06:14, BarbaraTherese said:

Cardinal among those reasons was the fact that I did not and could not view myself as "especially loved by God" as I was expected to do.  I felt and feel strongly that we are all equally loved and beloved by God ...

 

On 4/22/2016, 1:52:16, Gabriela said:

I agree with you BarbaraTherese that everyone is equally loved by God. To say some are more loved sounds Calvinist to me. I find it appalling and arrogant. It disgusts me.

I'm not sure I would agree...I think that God does love some people especially. For example, I'm really pretty sure that Jesus loves Our Lady especially! Also, in the Gospels Jesus did seem to be closer to some of the Apostles than to others. 

But I personally don't see this as a problem or something to be upset about, since God loves everyone completely and unconditionally. Just because God might love someone "more," doesn't mean that He loves anyone "less."

I recall that in Story of a Soul, St. Therese has struggled with the idea of the inequality of the saints. But then her sister Pauline explained it by setting out two glasses, one which was much smaller than the other. She filled them both with water, and then asked Therese: "Now, which one is more full?" Even though one glass did hold much more than the other, it didn't mean that the smaller glass was any less filled. 

I think there is a certain humility in letting God be God and accepting the fact that He gives whatever favors He wants to whomever He wills, regardless of whether or not this seems "fair" or "equal" to us. At the end of the day, we can all be confident that God does indeed love each one of us fully. So if God might love someone else more especially, it's really no concern of ours. 

On 4/22/2016, 1:52:16, Gabriela said:

I agree with you BarbaraTherese that everyone is equally loved by God. To say some are more loved sounds Calvinist to me. I find it appalling and arrogant. It disgusts me.

As an afterthought, I don't think saying, "God loves everyone and calls all to salvation, but He loves some especially" is really Calvinist. I think Calvinism is more like: "God only call some people to be saved, and has predestined others to damnation." There's a big difference there! 

[Gabriela]

You make a good point with the glasses that gave me this idea: From God's perspective, He loves some people more than others. But from our perspective, God does not love anyone more or less, because He loves everyone as much as they are able to be loved, i.e., He "fills" everyone with His love to their full capacity, but that capacity is different for different individuals.

I still see a parallel between the basic idea of God loving/not loving/loving more/loving less and Calvinist pre-destination! Why would God predestine anyone to damnation unless He didn't love them?

[BarbTherese]

  I could not experience nor think of myself as more loved by God for calling me to religious life (as I then thought I was)  - and finally prayers asked for a murdered missionary nun moreso than for the lay people really finished the monastic journey for me.  How it went at recreation was roughly:  Mother asked us to pray for the nun.  I said that we should pray for the lay people too.  Someone replied (I suspect one of the novices) "But she was a nun" and that reply I knew was the result of our formation.

I cannot experience nor think of myself personally as better or more than, more superior somehow, than anyone else.  Nor do I think that God calls the better and more superior persons to like vocations and that the vocation, therefore it follows, is an indication of who is better and more superior, more loved by God for being better and more superior than those in other vocations.  That is not my reasoning but the type of reasoning I experienced in monastic life.  Nor do I think for a moment that the same applies in all religious and monastic life and communities.

A bit of reflection and I still think that God loves every single person in a very special unique and quite personal way and mysteriously at the very same time loves all equally.  It is a mystery to me and the only way I can put it.  It still strikes me as not quite correct to state that God loves some more than others. 

I cannot grasp that The Love of God allows degrees, can be graded - His Love is always Perfect.

 

6 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

I recall that in Story of a Soul, St. Therese has struggled with the idea of the inequality of the saints. But then her sister Pauline explained it by setting out two glasses, one which was much smaller than the other. She filled them both with water, and then asked Therese: "Now, which one is more full?" Even though one glass did hold much more than the other, it didn't mean that the smaller glass was any less filled. 

 I can grasp that no soul will ever be able to contain the full extent of God's Love - my soul will only be able to contain (presupposing I arrive in Heaven) what I am able to contain..........this, for me, was the lesson of the half full half empty glass.  This concept does not at all, for me, present God's Love as graded or in degrees.  Certainly, Our Lady who is free from sin from the beginning can contain more of God's Perfect Love than any other.

 

6 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

I think there is a certain humility in letting God be God and accepting the fact that He gives whatever favors He wants to whomever He wills, regardless of whether or not this seems "fair" or "equal" to us. At the end of the day, we can all be confident that God does indeed love each one of us fully.

As I stated above..........I see God's Favours bestowed wherever He Will for whatever reasons for the good of The Church.  I do not think that this means that God Loves some more than others.

A quick Google and I came across this:

(CCC #42) God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, image-bound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God–“the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable”–with our human representations. Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God.

Read more: http://www.spiritualdirection.com/2013/06/17/does-god-have-favorites#ixzz46hECxeHV

And this article on the link above "Does God Have Favourites?"

Excerpt.............."

To say that “God has favorites” involves applying a very human expression and a very human reality (we all have favorites) to God, who “transcends” our human limitations. God certainly doesn’t have favorites the way we have favorites. Our human capacity for love is limited and influenced by many factors, including our fallen human nature. And so we have natural preferences and affections that can, if we aren’t careful, lead us into prejudice, bias, and neglect towards those we are not naturally attracted to. Those natural preferences and affections don’t have to lead us into those sins – it is perfectly acceptable to experience and act on a preferential love or affection for certain people; this is where friendships and spouses come from – but they can.

But as we grow in Christ, we are called to develop a supernatural capacity for affection and love, a love based not on our natural affinities, but on the needs and the dignity of the other person. The Holy Spirit’s gift of piety comes into play here. Piety enables us to begin seeing others from a supernatural perspective, not just from a natural perspective. And when we do that, we start acting as Christ acted, with a universal and pure love.

God’s Love Is Different

And now we come to the crux of your question. We know that God loves every single one of us (see Catechism #605 and #618), but does he love some more than others? If that were the case, it would mean that God has a limited amount of love, so to speak, which he has to portion out in chunks according to his preferences. But God is infinite, and his love is infinite – no limits, no portions, no measuring sticks. God is love (1 John 4:8); his very nature is love. Whenever he enters into relationship with another person, like you or me, his love is total, absolute, unlimited in any way whatsoever.

 

[Sponsa-Christi]

I just can't help but think, though, that insisting that God love everyone absolutely equally---as in, saying it's wrong to think that God could ever love anyone especially---seems like a form of pride. It's like a little kid getting mad at his mom for giving his brother a bigger piece of cake (even if that brother is older and has a bigger stomach). After all, there is a tradition that part of the reason Lucifer fell was because he couldn't accept the idea that God might love human beings more than the angels. 

To me, real humility means being okay with the idea that maybe God does love some people "more" than me---but realizing that in a sense it ultimately makes no difference, since I am still loved by God unconditionally for who I am.

On the other hand, if we are in some way spiritually "privileged" (such as being given gift of a religious vocation), I think it takes humility to graciously accept that, realizing that this says much more about the goodness of God than any merit of ours. This is not a personal criticism of anyone, but for someone to strongly reject the idea that he or she might be especially loved by God to me seems very prideful, as though we know better than God what is right and just, or how He ought to relate to His creatures. 

2 hours ago, Gabriela said:

I still see a parallel between the basic idea of God loving/not loving/loving more/loving less and Calvinist pre-destination! Why would God predestine anyone to damnation unless He didn't love them?

I can understand how someone might want to draw a parallel here, but I really don't see these as being similar scenarios at all. There is a world of difference between the idea that God wills to save some but wills to beaver dam others, and the thought that God loves everyone but might have special favorites. "Loved vs. loved especially" is not at all the same thing as "loved vs. held in contempt."

[BarbTherese]

35 minutes ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

I just can't help but think, though, that insisting that God love everyone absolutely equally---as in, saying it's wrong to think that God could ever love anyone especially---seems like a form of pride. It's like a little kid getting mad at his mom for giving his brother a bigger piece of cake (even if that brother is older and has a bigger stomach). After all, there is a tradition that part of the reason Lucifer fell was because he couldn't accept the idea that God might love human beings more than the an

Dropped the bundle, Sponsa?

Laughing here!  There is no emotional content in my replies, Sponsa.  I am searching for the truth of matters.  Not getting mad or envious of someone else's bigger stomach etc.  Are you projecting?  Seems to be the season for another landing on me emotional content I do not have or suggesting same, whatever.  Let's leave personal type comments out of it if possible please!

I cannot quite believe that you have compared God's Love to a "bigger piece of the cake - because the other is older and with a bigger stomach.  And then to go on to make a comparison with the fall of Lucifer related (I think) to those who do not accept your concepts!   ???? !!!!!

Although I must add, I am not denying that pride and lack of humility with me is problematic - not at all. .......just not in this instance insofar as I can insight into myself. 

I rejoice that you have no problems it seems with pride and lack of humility - that you are not in a glass house and can be the first to pick up a stone.  

As St Teresa of Avila wrote that we should never move out of the house of self knowledge.

35 minutes ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

To me, real humility means being okay with the idea that maybe God does love some people "more" than me---but realizing that in a sense it ultimately makes no difference, since I am still loved by God unconditionally for who I am.

 Ok - that is real humility to you but not my definition at all, pas du tout.  What I am searching for is the truth of matters about The Love of God for His creatures.  Could you stay off the sins of another please and stay on the subject matter?

35 minutes ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

On the other hand, if we are in some way spiritually "privileged" (such as being given gift of a religious vocation), I think it takes humility to graciously accept that, realizing that this says much more about the goodness of God than any merit of ours. This is not a personal criticism of anyone, but for someone to strongly reject the idea that he or she might be especially loved by God to me seems very prideful, as though we know better than God what is right and just, or how He ought to relate to His creatures. 

I can see what you keep trying to suggest and I am laughing.  I delight in God for dispersing His Gifts and Favours as He does for I know without question that He always knows what is best for individuals and at once for the Universal Church.  For when God acts, He acts for the good of all without exemption..........mysteriously.

If it is comforting to think of me as lacking humility and prideful, angry or bitter because God has dispersed His gifts or favours as He has............ok! I don't want to rob anyone of their comfort zone.  We all have our comfort zones. 

Please get off my case, fixation, obsession, stalking -  whatever it might be!

And meanwhile........back at the ranch..............

 

Edited April 24, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Sponsa-Christi]

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Laughing here!  There is no emotional content in my replies, Sponsa.  I am searching for the truth of matters.  Not getting mad or envious of someone else's bigger stomach etc.  Are you projecting?  Seems to be the season for another landing on me emotional content I do not have or suggesting same, whatever.  Let's leave personal type comments out of it if possible please!

In my last post, I was speaking in general terms, and not about any specific individual. I absolutely was not speculating on anybody's personal sinfulness or lack thereof. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

[BarbTherese]

For me, in Heaven (as ideally on earth "Your Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven") there will be no individualism - we will be gifted that oneness and unity that Jesus prayed for at The Last Supper "Father that they may be one as We Are One".  We will not be measuring up against each other with terms like better and best, superior inferior, less more etc. as we can quite often do on earth.  We simply will not think that way.  God will be our focus and delight.

It is not as if God says as it were, sort of, you only have 5 inches of capacity, so I will only give you 5inches of love.  In the journey of life ideally our holiness and capacity to love and be loved will grow - that does not mean that at the beginning we are given less love by God than when we grow further in holiness.  It simply means that our own capacity to receive His Always Infinite Love has grown, increased.  We know that that capacity to increase or decrease is fixed at death.

And so even if we should be granted the sight of another's glory in Heaven and as greater than our own, there will be no bitterness or resentment (sin), rather we will all be united in Praising and Thanking God as our united sole focus as ideally it is here on earth. But I don't think we would even notice greater glory than our own as being greater than our own.  We just wont think that way.

 

Quote

 

St Therese and the half full half empty glass and she is speaking about glory in Heaven:

"You knew all my intimate thoughts and cleared up all my doubts. I once told you how astonished I was that God does not give equal glory in heaven to all His chosen. I was afraid they were not at all equally happy. You made me bring Daddy’s tumbler and put it by the side of my thimble. You filled them both with water and asked me which was fuller. I told you they were both full to the brim and that it was impossible to put more water in them than they could hold. And so, Mother darling, you made me understand that in heaven God will give His chosen their fitting glory and that the last will have no reason to envy the first. By such means, you made me understand the most sublime mysteries and gave my soul its essential food. —St. Thérèse of Lisieux, The Story of a Soul. (New York: Double Day, 2001) 20."

 

5 minutes ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

In my last post, I was speaking in general terms, and not about any specific individual. I absolutely was not speculating on anybody's personal sinfulness or lack thereof. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

Perhaps I took personally what was not intended as the personal...........and so I apologise too

Matthew Chapter 20 - notice that it is the one who has done the least that receives the same wage or reward as the one that has done the most -  as Jesus adds at the end of the parable: "Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last"   It illustrates for me the completely equal Love of God for all.

¹ "The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with them for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard.Going out about nine o'clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and he said to them, 'You too go into my vineyard, and I will give you what is just.'

 

So they went off. (And) he went out again around noon, and around three o'clock, and did likewise.Going out about five o'clock, he found others standing around, and said to them, 'Why do you stand here idle all day?'They answered, 'Because no one has hired us.' He said to them, 'You too go into my vineyard.'When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Summon the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and ending with the first.'When those who had started about five o'clock came, each received the usual daily wage.

So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more, but each of them also got the usual wage.

And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner,

saying, 'These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the day's burden and the heat.' He said to one of them in reply, 'My friend, I am not cheating you. ⁴ Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage?

⁵ Take what is yours and go. What if I wish to give this last one the same as you?

(Or) am I not free to do as I wish with my own money? Are you envious because I am generous?'

⁶ Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last."

 

Edited April 24, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Last year, a man in our parish was given some highly regarded awards both by The Church and secular society for all he had done in voluntary work of various kinds........and he had done much.  Our pp shared with us all his awards and what he had been about in the voluntary work field.   Reflecting back, I know that as I applauded with all the rest - and with tears in my eyes, it was with such happiness and joy that this man had done so much and was so very humble about it all and I felt too at the time that the awards and glory showered on him that he had brought glory and award to all of us too - that we somehow shared in it all too by being Catholic with him and his gift to us all. 

I think it will be something like that in Heaven if we do notice other's glory as more than our own.

I would like every person regardless to have pride and Joy, Peace and fulfilment in their vocation no matter what it might be.  I would like them to feel honoured and gifted by God and given a most important place in both The Church and the world - a place and a person that is absolutely unique, beloved by God and needed by Him as none other in His Divine Plan.  I would like and I pray for all the aforementioned.............along with the hope and the prayer that every single person regardless will know and experience themselves as beloved of God equally with all regardless.  Amen.

[Gabriela]

3 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

We know that God loves every single one of us (see Catechism #605 and #618), but does he love some more than others? If that were the case, it would mean that God has a limited amount of love, so to speak, which he has to portion out in chunks according to his preferences. But God is infinite, and his love is infinite – no limits, no portions, no measuring sticks. God is love (1 John 4:8); his very nature is love. Whenever he enters into relationship with another person, like you or me, his love is total, absolute, unlimited in any way whatsoever.

Yes. I couldn't put my finger on it till now, but this gets at what bothers me about this type of thinking: It's quantitative. It's the analytical mind that attempts to divide things up and count them and hierarchize them and draw conclusions about them. I don't think that's how God's love work, because God is love itself.

That being said, I can still see how some people can be more filled with that love, because they themselves open themselves up more to it. The more we are emptied of ourselves, the more God—i.e., Love Itself—can fill us. But that really is not the same as being "more loved by God". I can see how one might simplify the idea in that way, but it seems misleading wording to me.

 

3 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

I just can't help but think, though, that insisting that God love everyone absolutely equally---as in, saying it's wrong to think that God could ever love anyone especially---seems like a form of pride. It's like a little kid getting mad at his mom for giving his brother a bigger piece of cake (even if that brother is older and has a bigger stomach). After all, there is a tradition that part of the reason Lucifer fell was because he couldn't accept the idea that God might love human beings more than the angels. 

To me, real humility means being okay with the idea that maybe God does love some people "more" than me---but realizing that in a sense it ultimately makes no difference, since I am still loved by God unconditionally for who I am.

I think that either view on the matter can derive from pride or humility. One might think, "It's not possible God loves someone else more than me, because I'm so wonderful." Or it's possible to think, "God does love me than others, cuz I'm less of a sinner than them." I think it's even possible one might believe God loves others more and oneself less because one has a prideful view of one's own humility. And in my experience, quantitative thinking often also leads into pride, a sense that one knows things one doesn't really. So all this stuff is bound up together. Pride and humility are really messy things, and I doubt we even know the state of our own hearts when it comes to them; God only knows.

Since you mentioned families: After my last post, I was in the kitchen and it dawned on me that God loves us like his children. But someone who truly loves their 10 children doesn't love any more or less than another, but all with all the love s/he has. That's the beautiful thing about love: It's indivisible. Giving some to one person doesn't diminish the amount you give to others. Now, parents often like one child more than others, because that child is more similar to the parent or more pleasant or whatever. But liking and loving are not the same.

I also thought about King David, who did certainly seem especially loved by God. But when I think of how the Bible talks about that, it does seem explicable using the liking idea rather than the loving one: King David sought the Lord almost without exception, which is like a child who seeks always to please his father. Won't that father have a soft spot for that particular child, especially if his other children are little monsters? Of course he will. But will the father love his other children less? Or just like them less/be less pleased with them?

[BarbTherese]

I was writing this post as you posted, Gabriela.  I think too of the Second Person of The Blessed Trinity incarnating, not as a great king with all the earthly glory humanity can offer as was His Just and Rightful place.  Rather God chooses to be born a vulnerable baby into a poor family nor on earth does He rise above that vulnerability and poverty - He is executed as a common criminal though innocent as a lamb led to a slaughter house.  Over His Life, His Father proclaims "This is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, listen to Him" ...........however, we can see without actually seeing and certainly hear or listen without understanding : "that seeing they may not see, and hearing may not understand." (Luke Chapter 8).  Through His Incarnation, Jesus (as it were) brings great glory and honour indeed to the very least...in my book.   Shocked at first to find myself living amongst the cripplingly poor with probably every social problem in the book - a few years down the line and I felt privileged and honoured, brought to a very special place indeed by God.............not so much to offer guidance and consolation..........but to learn and to be converted anew.

2 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

Pride and humility are really messy things, and I doubt we even know the state of our own hearts when it comes to them; God only knows.

Well said.  One only identifies one layer of pride and humility that in the doing, another layer is revealed another level - just peel that layer off the onion and another new layer appears.  All on Judgement Day, in my book, might well be standing with me in the line up for God's Infinite Loving Mercy, His Pardon and Forgiveness...........His Gratuitous Love, Mercy, Pardon and Forgiveness.  I used to have a little sign I made that somehow got lost in my shifting - Paul's Letter to Timothy "A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief.".........sorry there Paul, I have outdone you."  Sin to me can be measured ALSO by the Grace(s) granted not to sin.

2 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

Since you mentioned families: After my last post, I was in the kitchen and it dawned on me that God loves us like his children. But someone who truly loves their 10 children doesn't love any more or less than another, but all with all the love s/he has. That's the beautiful thing about love: It's indivisible. Giving some to one person doesn't diminish the amount you give to others. Now, parents often like one child more than others, because that child is more similar to the parent or more pleasant or whatever. But liking and loving are not the same.

I had written a long post (what's new - I'm a fast accurate typist and think on my feet courtesy past secretarial career- and a prolific writer for which I apologise) when suddenly my WiFi disconnected just as I hit "submit' and lost the entire post.  I swore, and then I thought as I most always do "wasn't meant to be" and started all over again.

In that post and linking to Gabriela's comments, it occurred to me that in my own journey, I have always favoured the most weak and lost - giving them more time and effort and a special or different sort of loving (to my human understanding).  That did not mean at all that I loved them any more than all the rest.  But I did love them in a special way for their weakness and lost-ness.  Some others I loved for their humility and virtue unsighted by themselves and that was a special love too. Etc. etc. etc.  It has been quite remarkable to me living amongst the very poor in society (as I once did) just how high in virtue they can be with absolutely no realization of it.  Liking and loving are not the same for sure.  Just as Agape Love (God's Love) has nothing to do with human type feelings which will wax and wane, shift, grow hot or cold, at the slightest provocation often.  Very often though we can anthropomorphized God's Love.

And in his journey to complete surrender to God, David committed some appalling serious sins.  He is not only an adulterer, but he murders to be able to commit adultery.  Gives me heart, strength and encouragement.

47 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

That being said, I can still see how some people can be more filled with that love, because they themselves open themselves up more to it. The more we are emptied of ourselves, the more God—i.e., Love Itself—can fill us. But that really is not the same as being "more loved by God". I can see how one might simplify the idea in that way, but it seems misleading wording to me.

I think of it similar to say the sun shining through a window.  The sun represents God's Love, the window represents the soul.  If a window is only open a chink, only that much sunlight can enter though the sun itself is not shining less.  If the window is open much more, then that much more sunlight can enter.