remarried catholics and the pope

[dairygirl4u2c]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-long-awaited-document-on-the-family-pope-francis-offers-hope-to-divorced-catholics-says-no-to-gay-marriage/2016/04/07/87be6dae-fb42-11e5-813a-90ab563f0dde_story.html?tid=sm_fb

Isn't the pope contradicting the doctrine that says those in mortal sin are not to receive communion by allowing for remarried catholics to receive?

[BarbTherese]

I haven't read the document, but our pp has just announced he is taking a month off and I suspect to read and internalize what The Holy Father has to say.     Reading about the document does indicate that with some 250 pages long and probably rather ambiguous in more than one place, it will take a very careful read more than once.

I think we Catholics can get confused over grave matter and mortal sin.  Grave matter is only one aspect of mortal sin.  Mortal sin requires two other dispositions at the actual time of committing grave matter and that is full knowledge and full consent.  What has been happening with many to some priests is that they can hide behind The Church's moral teachings (I have had experience of this) where one consults a priest and he informs one that one is in a state of mortal sin.  However, the truth of the matter is that while grave matter was present, the person did not have either full knowledge or full consent at the time - and therefore there is no mortal sin at all.

By hiding behind The Church's moral teachings, one feels one has 'ensured one's own salvation' and the salvation of the other is their problem.  The person giving advice does not have to become mixed up into the grey area of full knowledge and full consent and so pronounces grave matter as mortal sin.  Grave matter alone is NOT mortal sin.

This is what I think Pope Francis is speaking about in speaking against wielding a big moral stick (hiding behind The Church's moral teachings) and become loving and caring towards penitents and those who might seek their advice.  In other words, to indeed involve themselves in the grey and at times difficult area of full knowledge and full consent and to not be afraid to do so and pass on to pass on to all who seek it their informed advice - and in this instance remarried Catholics.

Edited April 8, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

The other point that has just occurred to me is that if I tell a person that an act of grave matter is in fact a mortal sin, then I am leading that person astray.  Therefore, one cannot hide behind the moral law of The Church and avoid by omission the often grey , even difficult, areas of full knowledge and full consent without oneself becoming involved and possibly in a state of sin oneself due to leading another astray.  "Possibly" is operative - it all depends on one's own dispositions at the time.  One might be ignorant of the three (3) necessary dispositions for mortal sin, but then is it culpable ignorance or inculpable?

If asked, I would tell a person that grave matter is in fact grave matter and possibly only mortally sinful.  I would advise them that they really need to speak with a priest.................with a prayer that the priest they consult will not in fact hide behind the moral law of The Church and make further enquiries to discern if full knowledge and full consent were present - and hence advise the person accordingly and more accurately one would hope and with compassion and understanding.  And I think it is compassion and understanding that is Pope Francis's emphasis, rather than 'wielding the big stick of the law' as a really big stick with Hell as it's ever ready edge. A disposition of compassion and understanding does NOT dispense with any of The Church teachings.  I did read somewhere that Jesus came to communicate to us the Love, Mercy and Understanding of God.  He did not come to burden us with laws, laws and more laws. This does not mean at all that the law no longer matters, because it really does............but if I think Jesus, His Gospel and His Church is all about laws, then I have missed the truth completely.  "I am The Way, The Truth and The Life" (John 14:6).........Know The Truth and The Truth shall make you free" (John 8:32)......".......Jesus is The Truth.

Moral law, to my mind, is a minefield where only angels and experts (priests etc.) will tread.  http://www.catholicity.com/catechism/the_moral_law.html

Where marriage and remarriage difficulties are concerned for one only, there is this teaching from the CCC

Catholic Catechism (Vatican website)

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

[BarbTherese]

10 hours ago, dairygirl4u2c said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-long-awaited-document-on-the-family-pope-francis-offers-hope-to-divorced-catholics-says-no-to-gay-marriage/2016/04/07/87be6dae-fb42-11e5-813a-90ab563f0dde_story.html?tid=sm_fb

Isn't the pope contradicting the doctrine that says those in mortal sin are not to receive communion by allowing for remarried catholics to receive?

I haven't actually read the document - I have only read about it to date.  I probably will not tackle the actual document as it sounds to me as if it probably will take a relatively high level of Catholic ability.........well anyway, that is my decision at this point.

From what I have read about the document, I don't think Pope Francis has actually said that those Catholics remarried outside The Church can receive Holy Communion.  What he has pointed out (from what I have read about the exhortation) is that the Confessional is where a penitent should meet the Loving Mercy of Jesus and that Holy Communion is not only for 'the perfect' but very much also the source of strength for those who are weak and struggling (paraphrasing there).  As I said in my previous post, Pope Francis has emphasised the pastoral counselling type situation including the moral situation and to make decisions on an individual basis, rather than wielding that big hellish moral stick that is condemning of all to Hell who will not bow to it.

I might be wrong about the document.

Must confess at this point, the fact that Jesus told us that He has come for sinners and that the just have no need of Him has always confused me when I couple it with the fact that certain types of sinners are excluded from Holy Communion........and probably those sinners most in need of The Strength of Jesus.   However, it is what The Church has taught and so my pondering has been suspended by my obedience to The Church.  Certainly St Paul has told us in his first epistle to The Corinthians (11:27) "Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord."  And The Church instructs us that "unworthily' is defined as mortal sin.

Also, to my mind, we are all guilty of the Body and Blood of The Lord no matter our state of soul.

As I stated in my previous post...............moral law = minefield.

 

Quote

 

Matthew 9:13
Go then and learn what this meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. For I am not come to call the just, but sinners.

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Reminds me of a story from the desert fathers.  A young monk had committed a very serious offence in the monastery and was banned from chapel for a month.  After a couple of days, the abbot's council noticed the abbot was absent from chapel. After a day or two they decided to go to his cell and enquire after his health.  The abbot replied to them "I too am a sinner".

[BarbTherese]

Catholic Culture website: Pope Francis "A Faith That is Not Able to Be Merciful is not Faith" (Mercy Sunday address)

Excerpt "We have heard the Gospel: Thomas was hard-headed. He did not believe. And he found his faith at precisely the moment he touched the wounds of the Lord. A faith that is not able to touch the Lord’s wounds, is not faith! A faith that cannot be merciful, as the Lord’s wounds were a sign of mercy, is not faith: it is an idea, an ideology. Our faith is incarnated in a God who was made man, who became sin, who was wounded for us. But if we really want to believe and have faith, we must draw near and touch those wounds, caress those wounds and even lower our head and allow others to sooth our wounds.

It is good that it is the Holy Spirit who guides us: he is love, he is the mercy that is poured into our hearts. May we not place obstacles to his life-giving work but with docility follow the path he shows us.

Let us open our hearts so that the Spirit can transform us; thus forgiven, reconciled, and sheltered in our Lord’s wounds, we will become witnesses to the joy that brims over on finding the risen Lord, alive among us."

[little2add]

Pope Francis upheld the traditional position of the Church on each of these issues.   the issues have not changed in any way.

 Pope Francis only reminded all Christians that we are still called to love one another.  

Again nothing new

Edited April 10, 2016 by little2add

[Nihil Obstat]

For a more informed background, Casti Connubi.

[little2add]

On April 8, 2016 at 3:47:55 PM, dairygirl4u2c said:

 

Isn't the pope contradicting the doctrine that says those in mortal sin are not to receive communion by allowing for remarried catholics to receive?

 

not really what he said, Pope Francis called for the church to be more tolerant in practice while not changing any official doctrines.  He urges more common sense and less unthinking following of rules.

"By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and growth," 

Pope Francis 

Edited April 11, 2016 by little2add

[BarbTherese]

Well said, little2add!

Commentary by Archbishop Mark Coleridge, Archbishop of Brisbane, Australia:

Getting into the Messiness of Human Life : ..........excerpt: "Of course he says the Church must speak the truth. But that isn’t enough. If that’s all we do, then we run the risk of turning the great truths of Christianity into stones that we hurl at those we want to condemn. We also need to walk with people, all kinds of people, especially those who are struggling in their marriage or family life. It’s what Christianity has to offer in an often merciless world.

To walk with people, whoever they are, means to enter into dialogue with them. That means we listen to people, whoever they may be and however far they may fall short of the ideal. For Francis, the ideal does matter; the vision must be kept clearly focused. But if we speak only of it, then we can drift off into some abstract noosphere that doesn’t breathe the air of reality.

I think the above is very important also because I can forget where I am stuck and struggling to get out of the messiness of my own human journey.  And what makes my mess less of a mess than the next person's delegating me to be the judge of anyone else?  This does not mean that I do not hold to and proclaim what The Church and The Gospel tells me - but it does mean that I can situate myself in my own reality and that of another as well........and live out the Way of Grace as a journey and growth in my own life and that of another.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

On 4/11/2016, 11:21:40, little2add said:

 

not really what he said, Pope Francis called for the church to be more tolerant in practice while not changing any official doctrines.  He urges more common sense and less unthinking following of rules.

"By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and growth," 

Pope Francis 

yeah it ain't all black and white though some is. this is the same for holy scripture as well.

this doesn't mean that we conceal the known truth either though, we still call sin sin but we are not to judge whether it is mortal or venial on face value unless we have all the details as to why the person has committed the sin and as to whether the person has full knowledge and consent as to comiting the sin, and even than it is better to say, " well that is a sin," and leave it at that and not judge the class of sin. And recomend confession, i would even recommend that for any christian who has committed a sin that may be mortal whatever the circumstances, " to be sure to be sure" and if a venial sin is habitual i also would recommend confession.