Suffering and Death

[Gabriela]

The "Offer It Up" thread made me think of this.

When I was 12, I was TERRIFIED of death. I remember one time someone at church trying to talk to me about it and I threw a fit until he walked out of the room. Then, something happened (I'm not being mysterious, I have no idea what it was), and now I have zero fear of death. It could happen five minutes from now and I'd be okay with that.

But suffering... oh, God. I cannot bear the thought of it. I whine about the smallest things. Little discomforts turn me into an unbearable *&%$#.

Why? What is this? I can't stand the thought of suffering, but death doesn't phase me at all?

Anyone else know this?

[CatherineM]

I suffer daily. Honestly, death will be a relief. My life is a great gift from God, so I'm not in any hurry. 

[truthfinder]

Well I can't be sure, but suffering doesn't have a fixed end to it. It's the fear that it will go on forever.  Death 'ends,' you'll only experience once, and you probably won't come back and complain about it.

Basically, CatherineM just summed it up nicely. 

[Gabriela]

46 minutes ago, truthfinder said:

Well I can't be sure, but suffering doesn't have a fixed end to it. It's the fear that it will go on forever.  Death 'ends,' you'll only experience once, and you probably won't come back and complain about it.

Exactly. Which is something I've never understood about Jesus' suffering. I'm not denying it was bad. But he did know it was going to be over sooner rather than later. I should think that'd make it better.

Here's something else I don't understand: In the Torah, it was forbidden to make an animal suffer during its sacrifice. To this day, kashrut (the kosher laws) forbids that the animal suffer during its slaughter. The killing is as quick and painless as possible. The animal dies almost instantly. So it was in the sacrifices in the temple. So if Jesus was a replacement for those sacrifices, why did he "have to" suffer so much? That seems to break the parallel.

[truthfinder]

Just now, Gabriela said:

Exactly. Which is something I've never understood about Jesus' suffering. I'm not denying it was bad. But he did know it was going to be over sooner rather than later. I should think that'd make it better.

Here's something else I don't understand: In the Torah, it was forbidden to make an animal suffer during its sacrifice. To this day, kashrut (the kosher laws) forbids that the animal suffer during its slaughter. The killing is as quick and painless as possible. The animal dies almost instantly. So it was in the sacrifices in the temple. So if Jesus was a replacement for those sacrifices, why did he "have to" suffer so much? That seems to break the parallel.

I can't answer you completely, and I hope someone can, but death is a consequence of sin. And so Jesus' torment as a divine person who's never experienced the consequences of sin in a situation outside of time (eternal) I don't think can be entirely viewed the same as from our own human perspective of death and suffering.  I believe the visions of Bridget of Sweden talks a little bit of consequences that sin had on Jesus in terms of suffering despite being sinless.

[Gabriela]

4 minutes ago, truthfinder said:

I can't answer you completely, and I hope someone can, but death is a consequence of sin. And so Jesus' torment as a divine person who's never experienced the consequences of sin in a situation outside of time (eternal) I don't think can be entirely viewed the same as from our own human perspective of death and suffering.  I believe the visions of Bridget of Sweden talks a little bit of consequences that sin had on Jesus in terms of suffering despite being sinless.

But the animals were also sinless. It just doesn't make sense to me. The only reason I can think he'd suffer is as an example to us that he knows and understands all our suffering. But from my perspective, his suffering was so thoroughly different from mine—in kind—that I can't relate to that at all. I mean, I can relate to him being scorned and mocked and treated cruelly by horrible people, but the torture and whatnot... 

I just don't get it.

[cappie]

This is probably not much help, I dislike suffering as much as the next person, and as a priest I have seen no small share as well as my own, however in my calmer moments I like to think on this Bible verse:

Lamentations 3:19-24 

¹⁹ The thought of my suffering and homelessness
    is bitter beyond words.^[a]
20 I will never forget this awful time,
    as I grieve over my loss.
²¹ Yet I still dare to hope
    when I remember this:

²² The faithful love of the Lord never ends!^[b]
    His mercies never cease.
²³ Great is his faithfulness;
    his mercies begin afresh each morning.
²⁴ I say to myself, “The Lord is my inheritance;
    therefore, I will hope in him!”

[Luigi]

First, I'm not afraid of death either, in the sense of being dead. I got started off right when I was a kid - I had a very old relative with whom I spent a fair amount of time and who was very good to me; she thought she had "lived too long" - outlived all of her siblings and friends. She was ready to go, and she went. Additionally, I believe in everlasting life. And from what I hear, you don't have to drag your butt out of bed early in the morning, or mop the kitchen floor, or put up with rush hour traffic in heaven - SIGN ME UP! But I am concerned about getting from here to there - and how much suffering will be involved.

Second - and there are other replies coming in as I type this, so the question may already have been answered better than I can - but in terms of Jesus suffering... I don't know if his suffering was supposed to be as quick and painless as the animal sacrifices - analogies go only so far. But if he can endure all of that and still forgive us, then he can forgive anything. And I think that's the meaning or reason behind his suffering. At least that's my current interpretation of it.  

 

[cappie]

Just an addition:

When I am in pain and focused on myself it can be difficult to remember that every person I encounter carries a heavy load and bares their own wounds of which I have no knowledge. If I am able to step outside of my own pain, I am reminded that the hidden wounds we all suffer in silence are often soothed by the healing melodies of kindness, compassion and love that land gently on the heart. When I attempt, however feeble that attempt may be, to practice kindness, compassion and love, I discover that it is my heart that is softened and my wounds that are healed by focusing on another's burden rather than my own 

[BarbTherese]

I think of the life and death of Jesus as Him entering fully into cause and effect, just as we are.  We know what caused His Death and hence the result (effect)of the way He Lived and until the end, though He could have, He did not back away from cause and effect.  When cause and effect are interrupted as it were, we call it a miracle. 

Jesus was totally obedient until His Death.  He was commissioned by The Father to enter fully into humanity and to preach of The Father's Love, Understanding and Compassion, His Mercy - The Gospel of Jesus.

Suffering is an evil and to me it is just, appropriate, right and ok to not like it   I don't think that we need in any way to have any affection for it, since it is an evil.  Death is an evil too.  We do have the power and Grace however to transform suffering and death.

When something unusual happens and something unusual that is a happy occurance, I think of it as a Grace and a gift ........... and move on.....in the main.

Salvifici Doloris (John Paul II - 1984)  "Christ has in a sense opened his own redemptive suffering to all human suffering. . . . Christ has accomplished the world’s redemption through his own suffering. For, at the same time, this redemption, even though it was completely achieved by Christ’s suffering, lives on and in its own special way develops in the history of man. It lives and develops as the body of Christ, the Church, and in this dimension every human suffering, by reason of the loving union with Christ, completes the suffering of Christ. It completes that suffering just as the Church completes the redemptive work of Christ. "

Edited April 6, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[PhuturePriest]

Physical suffering never gets me. It's the suffering of doing something that stresses me out because I really don't want to do it, such as a school subject I find particularly hard. I procrastinate and wait until the last minute because the very thought of doing it seems agonizing, and I'd literally rather go through any physical pain than do it. Heck, I can make a game out of pain and laugh my way through if I have to (which is my usual tactic,) but no amount of sarcastic comments can ease the pain of doing something I hate.

What always helps me to get through it is to remember that "suffering is the most wasted gift" (Mother Teresa), and that ultimately, no matter how long it will take, this, too, shall pass. What always gets me is I have this mindset that I'll be doing this thing *forever*. When I mentally remind myself that it's only for a certain period of time, and that one day it will be long behind me, I find it much more bearable to get through.

[Spem in alium]

I think it does come back to what truthfinder said: suffering has no fixed end. I think once it begins for us we have no idea how long it will go, and that scares us because we by nature like to have a level of control over our own lives. Suffering removes that control from us. The fear of death is similar in a way, because it's also something we have little if no control over; though I think more people are afraid of what happens after death, and usually of a perceived "nothingness", rather than of death itself.

My life has known suffering from day one. My own circumstances have caused others, particularly my parents, to suffer too; most of the time that's been out of my control, but it is still painful to bear. Previously I tried very hard not to think about my suffering, and even not to accept it, because I (foolishly and selfishly) wanted to show people I was a strong or a brave person. I liked being admired, and hey, acting like a strong person in the face of obvious difficulty was bound to get me admiration. I wasn't strong or brave, and I'm still not, but God has given me the grace to recognise that yes, I do suffer. And it really is a grace. I don't admit that to get sympathy from others, or to present myself as being "worse off", but because I believe that by admitting my own weaknesses and my own hurts, I can better allow God to cover them with His strength. 

What's also really helped me is recognising that life - all of it - is a gift from God, and so I have to be thankful for all of it. I'm not a believer in God causing suffering; I believe He suffers along with me. My religious superior actually helped me to start doing this more consistently, and I'm so grateful for her. Recognising the beauty of my life, even with its difficulties, has been a tremendous blessing. 

[BarbTherese]

15 minutes ago, Spem in alium said:

I'm not a believer in God causing suffering; I believe He suffers along with me

27 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

Physical suffering never gets me. It's the suffering of doing something that stresses me out because I really don't want to do it, such as a school subject I find particularly hard. I procrastinate and wait until the last minute because the very thought of doing it seems agonizing, and I'd literally rather go through any physical pain than do it. Heck, I can make a game out of pain and laugh my way through if I have to (which is my usual tactic,) but no amount of sarcastic comments can ease the pain of doing something I hate.

I know the feeling, you are not alone  ...........e.g. I absolutely detest washing my hair (I have to blow it dry or it settles into a disordered mop).   It is creative what I will do just to avoid washing my hair.

28 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

When I mentally remind myself that it's only for a certain period of time, and that one day it will be long behind me, I find it much more bearable to get through

I did go through 20 years of quite serious psychosis with bipolar episodes coming more or less one after the other.  I was totally off planet earth and most often hospitalized.  I would just start to get settled at home again and another episode and back into hospital. There were rather rare times of 'sanity'. Bipolar can be  a weird sort of mental illness in that one can be seriously psychotic during an episode, and then completely normal between times.  Not unusual for those symptoms to cause others to think one can and should "pull yourself together".   The illness took my life apart in every way.  I was ill, impoverished, alone and for quite a few years homeless as well.  I know what it is to suffer.  How did I get from there to here wherever it is? That is a good question.

[BarbTherese]

6 hours ago, Gabriela said:

Here's something else I don't understand: In the Torah, it was forbidden to make an animal suffer during its sacrifice. To this day, kashrut (the kosher laws) forbids that the animal suffer during its slaughter. The killing is as quick and painless as possible. The animal dies almost instantly. So it was in the sacrifices in the temple. So if Jesus was a replacement for those sacrifices, why did he "have to" suffer so much? That seems to break the parallel.

As I see it, the animals in the temple were sinless and so every effort is made to ensure that they do not suffer.  Jesus, however, willingly actually bore the sins of mankind, from the beginning of time to it's end without diminishment nor mitigation.  In His terrible sufferings, I see (as it were) what my sins have done to The Sinless One, an Innocent Lamb slaughtered.

 

Not up on such matters, but I think the temple sin offering had to be an animal without any blemish nor stain.  And this offering had to be made over and over again as the sinfulness of Israel daily continued.  One such offering was never ever remotely sufficient for the sins of all mankind for all time past, present and future to the end of time.  Jesus, Second Person of The Blessed Trinity, truly man and Truly God, willingly takes it all upon Himself.

Edited April 6, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Another point to me is that I do not contemplate a crucifix and see what the whole of sin has done - that is sort of disassociation to me.........it is impersonal.  It is a sort of a rather mystical type notion without being a mystic nor mystical nor any sort of istical............ but for me every individual person who gazes upon a crucifix sees what his or her sins have done.  I see what my sins have done.