Men's religious life 35+

[bardegaulois]

After your replies and my own research into and prayer upon the matter, I believe my first investigation will be along the monastic route. It was actually my first suspicion that monasticism would likely be the best direction for me to take, and my consideration has me leaning more in that direction. Of course, that opens up yet further questions. The Rule of St. Benedict gives us the general framework, but a monastery isn't like an order or a congregation; each house is independent and thus has its own distinct personality.

Thus, limiting myself to six hours' driving distance (as I'm only occasionally able to get away overnight for the time being), I'm now going to start visiting houses to hear their liturgies and to get a sense of their environment, to see which I'd like to visit again for a longer period in the summer when I will better be able. Doing so surreptitiously and anonymously for now strikes me as much more becoming than simply writing the unsolicited letters I have in the past, in which I'm never quite sure how I come across. Once I get to know more about the house I'll figure out best what to write.

How to broach the question of scholarship, though, may be difficult. No doubt my intention is to imitate Christ more perfectly than is possible in the world and in doing so to become better formed to His image and more secure of my final salvation. That is of course the best to focus on for the time being. If I were to say in the beginning, though, that I read Latin and some Greek and have read broadly in philosophy, Sacred Scripture, Patristics, Church history, moral and dogmatic theology, liturgy, and canon law, in addition to the other branches of the liberal arts, I worry if I come across as proud or ambitious. To be frank, I don't know how to resolve this. Any ideas?

[Charbel]

1 hour ago, bardegaulois said:

How to broach the question of scholarship, though, may be difficult. No doubt my intention is to imitate Christ more perfectly than is possible in the world and in doing so to become better formed to His image and more secure of my final salvation. That is of course the best to focus on for the time being. If I were to say in the beginning, though, that I read Latin and some Greek and have read broadly in philosophy, Sacred Scripture, Patristics, Church history, moral and dogmatic theology, liturgy, and canon law, in addition to the other branches of the liberal arts, I worry if I come across as proud or ambitious. To be frank, I don't know how to resolve this. Any ideas?

I think that we often forget WHO it was who gave us the talents we have. God gave you these plentiful and wonderful abilities and talents so that you could not only glorify Him in your work, but share with others these gifts that He bestowed upon you. This is something I often struggle with, as in "am I being proud in admitting this talent I can do?" (I also think one of the reasons this often comes across my mind is because the word "talent" itself sounds proud, but only if we forget to thank and glorify our Creator for giving them to us)

When I was discerning with a particular community, I started off with phone calls, so as to avoid the "How will I come across in this letter" question, and also because I tend to have a hard time describing myself in general, but on paper - much worse. So, that's just me. But, I did find it MUCH easier to contact them with questions I had and hearing one of the sisters speak gave me the assurance that I was speaking to human beings and not just sending something off into a monastic void. It was a lot easier to open up about myself, and it gave them more opportunities to ask questions about me so I wasn't doing all the work in trying to describe myself and my abilities.

When I would tell them "Oh, I can sew" "Yes I cook often" "I read all the time!" "Oh yes, I very much like to embroider", it wasn't so much "look at me and all these things I can do" but more "these are the talents God gave me, this is what I have to offer"

Try phone calls and real person visits, if you can. I know some communities also do things like skype. It is just MY personal opinion that it is better to start off with a phone call, and then when you know them a little bit, letters are a great way to keep them updated on you and to ask them questions you may not have remembered to ask in person or on a phone call.

I suppose my main point is to just try letting those things (reading Latin and some Greek, philosophy, Sacred Scripture, Patristics, Church history, moral and dogmatic theology, liturgy, and canon law, in addition to the other branches of the liberal arts - lol) just allow them to come up in conversation, because then there's less chance to be perceived as proud or arrogant.

[Egeria]

I second the idea of letting those things come up gradually as you get to know a community. I once got a decidedly frosty response when I said in an initial letter that I was on the verge of completing a doctorate in theology. I had to say something about what I was doing and it was from the other side of the world before the days of the Internet so I couldn't get to know the communities gradually, which would have been a much better idea. I later heard that it was just that particular novice mistress, and I might also add that other monastic communities responded quite differently. But getting to know communities - and allowing them to get to know you - gradually sounds like a much better idea.

In case you don't know it, you may find the OSB Atlas helpful in working out which communities are within your region.

[Sponsa-Christi]

30 minutes ago, Egeria said:

I once got a decidedly frosty response when I said in an initial letter that I was on the verge of completing a doctorate in theology.

Just wondering, what was the issue with working on a doctorate in theology? (If you feel comfortable sharing, that is.) There are certainly a lot worse things one could be doing with one's time.

[Egeria]

43 minutes ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

Just wondering, what was the issue with working on a doctorate in theology? (If you feel comfortable sharing, that is.) There are certainly a lot worse things one could be doing with one's time.

I really don't know, Sponsa. It may have been my interpretation that that's what caused the frostiness, but it was a very short and very initial letter in which I didn't say more than a few lines, so I don't know what else could have been a problem, unless it was the fact that I was a foreigner. It's also possible that the frostiness was a cultural thing, although I had much more positive responses to the same letter from other communities in the same country. As it happened, I never did visit that monastery. I did make a point of trying, but the dates just didn't work out and, well, given the initial response and having received much more welcoming responses elsewhere, I didn't pursue it.

To be honest, I did later have a community raise the issue of whether I would find enough intellectual stimulation in their community, although more in the sense of saying this is something to look at, rather than saying don't come. And I think that is a valid concern. But the irony is that the community I received the frosty response from actually had a reputation for scholarship. But, as I later heard from someone who had been there, it may just have been an issue with that particular novice mistress, or she might just have been having a bad day. And if I had been closer by and had got to know the community gradually, the experience would probably have been very different.

[Gabriela]

I've had communities respond negatively to my education. Some communities can be very anti-intellectual and they think you'll either come in as a know-it-all or you'll get intellectually bored and leave. I think some people also just feel really insecure around a highly educated person, like they think you're judging them all the time. Over the last few years, I've devised conversational strategies to avoid telling people I'm getting a PhD, that I teach in higher ed, etc. I find it's just much more comfortable for some people not to know.

As for bardegaulois' most recent post: I agree with Charbel and Egeria that gradual is the way to go. Communities always seem much more open and impressed by people who actually just show up. Especially if you have to drive a long way, that says something about you—more than anything you could write in a letter. And if you're visiting true monasteries (i.e., where the brothers are enclosed), they'll remember your face, especially if you visit more than once. They'll be curious about you, and so when you finally speak to them, they'll ask you plenty of questions. Just don't spill it all at once, or else it can come across as you trying to impress them, which reads like desperation to get in, which raises flags. Just answer the questions with the most relevant info, and trust it'll all come out in time.

[Nunsuch]

I think it's important to realize that communities vary widely. I realize that you, Bardegaulois, are male, and I'm most familiar with women's congregations. But I am very close to one that requires all candidates either to have an MA in theology or spirituality, or to seek one upon entry. [Obviously, if after entrance, the community is responsible for financing it, although most sisters end up earning an assistantship or something to pay much of the cost.] Virtually everyone in the congregation has at least an MA, and most have more. And many other communities I know are similar. So the anti-intellectualism that Gabriela refers to is not universal by any means.

[Starets]

Holy Cross in Chicago chants the Office in English. Oh and they have nice new choir stalls too! You might wish to have a look at Christ in the Desert as well. They are in the southwest but if you are a vocational prospect they can pick you up at the airport.The abbot drove me from teh airport on my first visit there as he was coming in on a flight a couple hours after mine landed! Thgey follow the full horarium, chant the Office in English and have a reverent liturgy.

[bardegaulois]

On 4/12/2016, 10:00:27, Nunsuch said:

I think it's important to realize that communities vary widely. I realize that you, Bardegaulois, are male, and I'm most familiar with women's congregations. But I am very close to one that requires all candidates either to have an MA in theology or spirituality, or to seek one upon entry. [Obviously, if after entrance, the community is responsible for financing it, although most sisters end up earning an assistantship or something to pay much of the cost.] Virtually everyone in the congregation has at least an MA, and most have more. And many other communities I know are similar. So the anti-intellectualism that Gabriela refers to is not universal by any means.

Perhaps it would be good to make a distinction here, as I don't believe we're dealing with a problem specifically of religious life in general here. After all, certain communities have what could be termed a very professional apostolate that requires certain degrees and certifications, and likewise many communities of men with a clerical focus would insist on readiness for seminary studies before entrance.

The focus here, though, has come to be less religious life in general, but more specifically monastic life, and it's not difficult to see how a scholarly type might occasionally want for stimulation in a monastic environment, which some might often see as repetitive or monotonous. Nonetheless, our witness of the amazing scholarship that has come out of monasteries throughout the Church's history shows that this is not necessarily so. Again, there really is no Benedictine "order," as we often think of it, and thus every house, being independent, will have a different personality. So perhaps (and I'd ask Gabriela, Egeria, and Charbel to comment upon this), it's an issue best resolved house to house, a more general rule not really existing. Any thoughts?

[Nunsuch]

Well, I've visited numerous Benedictine communities, both male and female, and I've not run into anti-intellectualism in any of them. Consider, for instance, the number of monasteries (female and male) that run schools and colleges. The nuns at St. Ben's in St. Joseph, MN, also have a Studium, in which scholars come for short term sabbaticals (I've stayed there), and are also welcome to participate in the liturgical life of the community. I think Beech Grove, Indiana, also has similar facilities. The Carmelites I know well--Baltimore, Indianapolis, Cleveland--have extremely large libraries and also rely on nearby university and public libraries when their own collection doesn't suffice.  I honestly don't see anti-intellectualism as a widespread problem--but perhaps there are some communities where it is the case. The ones I know welcome active and well formed minds....

 

[Gabriela]

I do think this is an issue best pursued from house to house. As Nunsuch says, while there are certain orders that you would never (likely) find anti-intellectualism in, the work that a particular house pursues in order to make ends meet may rule out serious study for any of its members. I should think that's the case for any house engaged in agriculture that has relatively few members, for example. Agriculture is so time- and labor-intensive that it's likely they have "all hands on deck", even if they appreciate and wish they had time for more study. Such would be the case, I suspect, for any house that is struggling to support itself.

@Nunsuch: Some more traditional women's houses tend to be anti-intellectual. My SD is a former Carmelite who has said to me on many occasions that the Carmelites can be quite anti-intellectual. I have also found that to be so, but only in some houses. This is just an example, and not something that's unique to Carmelites, and not relevant to bardegaulois, but I just make the point to clarify that it does exist.

[Nunsuch]

Oh, I know some houses may be anti-intellectual, but the majority are not. For example, among Carmelites in the US (I'm not so familiar with other countries), there are notable scholars in Baltimore (e.g., Constance FitzGerald) and elsewhere, and I think of the late Vilma Seelaus who was in Barrington. 

Gabriela, you raise another interesting issue: are "more traditional" communities more likely to be anti-intellectual? If so, I wonder why? I would hope that scholarship and intellectual pursuit would not become associated with a particular world-view.... Maybe this should be pursued in a separate thread. As you know, most (but by no means all) of my research is focused on communities that are, today, somewhat less traditional, but it would concern me if newer and more traditional groups take this kind of approach.

[RafaelCordero]

1 hour ago, Nunsuch said:

but it would concern me if newer and more traditional groups take this kind of approach.

Please don't cast aspersions on newer and more traditional groups or the approach they are taking.

I mean this seriously.

[bardegaulois]

3 hours ago, RafaelCordero said:

Please don't cast aspersions on newer and more traditional groups or the approach they are taking.

I mean this seriously.

I'd think it more likely that a traditional Catholic would want an aspersion cast before Mass...

In all seriousness, though, I don't see anyone attacking the reputation of any specific group. I see only statements that certain congregations or monasteries may not emphasize the life of the mind, and that some might be concerned, as Egeria noted, that those with an intellectual bent "would [not] find enough intellectual stimulation in their community." It's a valid concern that I'm actually pleased that many have.

[Gabriela]

4 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

Gabriela, you raise another interesting issue: are "more traditional" communities more likely to be anti-intellectual? If so, I wonder why? I would hope that scholarship and intellectual pursuit would not become associated with a particular world-view.... Maybe this should be pursued in a separate thread. As you know, most (but by no means all) of my research is focused on communities that are, today, somewhat less traditional, but it would concern me if newer and more traditional groups take this kind of approach.

I think they do tend to be, yes, at least in my experience. Traditionalist Catholics tend to have a very Victorian notion of womanhood, and extensive study isn't a part of that. I have noticed this in some traditionalist women's houses. They "know their place" relative to the men and emphasize a very domestic-looking way of life. Regina Laudis seems like an exception to this. I'd love to hear of others.

I doubt very much that this affects the men's traditionalist houses, though. They're men!

 

3 hours ago, RafaelCordero said:

Please don't cast aspersions on newer and more traditional groups or the approach they are taking.

I mean this seriously.

Let's not get nasty. She didn't even make a statement, much less "cast" anything. She just asked me a question.

 

9 minutes ago, bardegaulois said:

I'd think it more likely that a traditional Catholic would want an aspersion cast before Mass...

In all seriousness, though, I don't see anyone attacking the reputation of any specific group. I see only statements that certain congregations or monasteries may not emphasize the life of the mind, and that some might be concerned, as Egeria noted, that those with an intellectual bent "would [not] find enough intellectual stimulation in their community." It's a valid concern that I'm actually pleased that many have.

I would prefer an asperGion before Mass, indeed.  

Rafael was carrying another thread's conversation into this one, particularly something that Nonsuch said in that other thread.