So sick of hearing about these priest molesting kids

[Guest]

When you reach the point that guys become "cute" to you or you're attracted to them (even a little) you're not straight. I'm not bashing gay people. I understand being gay isn't a sin. Acting on it is. Although the Catholic Church does not need gay Priests. They should be banned.

Just now, Anomaly said:

Read the entire article on the Reflections link enitharin posted in this thread.  If may give you a better perspective.  You can hate some players, don't quit the game. 

My Faith in Christ and God goes way deeper then religion. I really believe God exists. If I didn't I wouldn't say I did. If I ever left the Catholic Church my faith in God and Christ would be fully intact.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Guest

[BarbTherese]

beatitude : But even though I agree that we need to face up to abuse as a community, even when that means going against Father Favourite or hauling our dirty laundry to the public laundromat, I also get the frustration over the way it gets brought up. Someone will express outrage. OK, fine, many of us are outraged. But what it does it achieve to keep saying on Phatmass again and again how outraged we are and how it should never have happened? I may just be jaded because in 'real life' I have had people being quite aggressive and confrontational with me over this, expecting me to justify my religious faith and almost acting as though I'm personally culpable for the abuse, so when I see these threads I think OK, what's the expectation? That we sit at the keyboard and self-flagellate with our mouse cables?

 

I have learnt an awful lot by reading some posts on Phatmass and overall, I have learnt far more than I have ever contributed such as it is.

I think my expectation out of all this would be to see The Church actually really change.   I was bowled over completely during Cardinal Pell’s evidence that the fact that compelling children absolutely to go to Confession at a certain time was not strongly contradicted by him. His comment was “that is not acceptable”.  From evidence presented, a priest now known to have groomed and subsequently abused children compelled that every child was to go to Confession at a certain day and time and when he was hearing confessions.  I was shocked too that those in charge in teaching positions in the Catholic school at that time had never contradicted or challenged Father directly.

As for “personally culpable”, I sure hope that I personally am not, but I cannot avoid what Jesus has told us and how The Church interprets the Doctrine of The Mystical Body of Christ on earth, The Church.  We either build up or detract from The Mystical Body of Christ.  And as stated before, Pope Benedict has said that we only have to fear the sins IN THE CHURCH.  Reading that statement gave me pause to seriously reflect taking me from one point and then to a connected point and then to another etc.

“The Church should fear the sin of its own members more than hatred against Christians, Pope Benedict XVI said.

He told the crowds gathered for the event that Mary is “free from every stain of sin [and] the Church is holy, but at the same time is marked by our sins”. http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/12/08/church-should-fear-sin-of-members-more-than-persecution-says-pope/

 

 

veritasluxmea I don't know how to address denial and cover-ups at an institutional level. 

Neither do I as a “what we should do is…….”  The result of these shocking scandals is one very serious factor.  Another vital and serious factor asking honest address is as to why the scandals came about, existed and then continued to exist over years.  I don’t think change can be effected by Church leadership stating that there is change within our Church – we need to see change in action.  We need transparency.  To date we have (it seems to me) assurances and promises – but can I trust this?  Nor do I know how to see beyond assurances and promises to something I can indeed trust.  Not yet anyway. 

One point I would like to raise and something that still persists within my limited experience in Church life generally, is the assumption that hierarchy and priests, religious, have more importance to Church life overall than the laity.  I am not saying that hierarchy etc. have no importance, but that each has a different kind of equal importance to Church life.  What The Church and various leadership have to state publicly is one matter, how it translates into actual action in a diocese or parish is another.

 

Josh Also as big as the Catholic Church is I understand that kids might get molested. As sick and disturbing as that is its a fact of life. It happens ever where not just the Catholic Church. My PROBLEM IS THE CONTINUED ******* COVER UP!!!!!!! And if it continues I'm out.

Luke 17:1
And he said to his disciples: It is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come.

 

  Josh: My Faith in Christ and God goes way deeper then religion. I really believe God exists. If I didn't I wouldn't say I did. If I ever left the Catholic Church my faith in God and Christ would be fully intact.

I have had some serious crises of Faith along my journey at times since my teens – I resolved them through acknowledging that for me to abandon The Church would be to abandon Christ and His Gospel.  There was no way I could walk away from my absolute belief in the Presence of The Real Body and Blood of Christ in The Blessed Eucharist. Much reasoning and reflection flowed from that premise and mental and emotional stance. Disillusionment re certain Church leadership of all kinds in action and at parish level (i.e. The Church as a humanly functioning institution) was a possible and a result – but never to leave The Church.  To stand beside Christ no matter what comes along is my hope and prayer to the end.  I think this is what The Creed we recite prayerfully (i.e. addressed to God) during Mass is all about – and we renew our baptismal promises or vows at Easter and possibly at other times too.  These are not light words at all.  They have serious meanings and implications, responsibility and accountability.

And since Holy Week and Easter is coming up – a Catholic Culture article account of Roman crucifixion using various reliable sources as well as The Gospel account: http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/overviews/seasons/lent/passion1.cfm

[beatitude]

2 hours ago, Josh said:

I don't know what to tell you. I guess you're of the opinion don't speak about it because it makes the Church look bad. Like Anomaly said let's talk more about all the people going to hell for masturbation and missing Mass. 

I wouldn't bring it up EXCEPT this article and NEW information just got released. More Bishops hiding **** and keeping priests around who do this sick twisted ****. You're acting as if I'm bringing up old news. Not the case. And again a STRAIGHT MAN is not capable of molesting or or hooking up with boys. The minute he is he isn't straight.

There are straight men out there who have raped boys and other men and gay men who have raped women and girls. In the service for refugees and torture survivors where I used to work, we had many clients who had been raped as a form of torture and humiliation. It wasn't about the perpetrator's desire for the opposite sex or the same sex, it was about their desire to inflict pain on members of a group they saw as inferior. Abuse is not necessarily about attraction. The only conclusion you can draw from a man who attacks a child (boy or girl) is that he's an abuser. It's not possible to say anything about his orientation based on that alone.

2 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

Not quite accurate. A lot of girls were harmed too. I'm not a big expert on childhood trauma and homosexuality, but I know being gay for another adult is not the same as desiring to abuse a kid of the same gender. Although you're right that men attracted to and in healthy marriages are not child-abusers. 

I don't know how to address denial and cover-ups at an institutional level. 

Father-child incest is a very common form of child sexual abuse, and it happens in married homes where everything looks rosy and perfect on the outside. I think we need to stop generalising about abuse. It makes it harder to spot, because if we don't expect to find it in a particular place, we won't be alert to the signs.

2 hours ago, Anomaly said:

What is the expectation?   That is the challenge.  It is good to be challenged about what you are doing or aren't doing.   At one time I thought I was doing the right thing.   I don't think so now. I also don't think the Church should be utterly destroyed, but it certainly needs a bit more practical humility in practice than the superficial lip service that is the reality. 

This is what perplexes me - ranting about the same topic again and again on the Internet could also be construed as superficial lip service, because what does it achieve, except maybe to get the disgust and anger off your chest? I know an ex-Catholic who is now incredibly anti-Catholic, and she posts on Facebook all the time about abuse among the clergy, criticising people who are all talk and no action. But where is her action? It's all about clicktivism and Facebook statuses, and isn't that lip service? People on Phatmass are unable to single-handedly prevent abuse and the cover-ups that go hand-in-hand with abuse, and I think this is why some people get tired of talking about it. It's not that they don't care. For my part, I want to continue working in a therapeutic capacity with traumatised children, advocating for their rights, and trying to educate people that abusers do not necessarily look a certain way, so that they won't be blindsided into denial and grief if someone they respect is found to be abusing a child. But beyond that there is not much I can do, and when people challenge me on this in my everyday life, it feels that they need to hear me disavow the abuse or else they will hold me guilty by association. It's like I'm a doll with a string - they want to hear the right words when they pull it. To me that's pointless.

[BarbTherese]

My reply to those who are critical because I remain a practising Catholic is to point out that while we do acknowledge that shocking scandals have occurred in our midst over many years and inexcusable in the extreme and crimes that have marked children by suffering most likely for life, this does not mean that there are not excellent hierarchy, priests and religious as well as lay people equally in our Catholic midst also.  Our challenge does become how to weed out insofar as is possible criminal evils in our midst and as much as we can.  That will not be an overnight event but a journey.  It probably has to start with directly adequately addressing the criminal evils that came about and the truly terrible results  - and why they all occurred in the first place.

For example, in Ballarat parish in Victoria Australia, at one point there were four paedophile priests present in that parish at the same time.  Cardinal Pell commented that "it was a sad coincidence" ???? ! 

[vee]

What can we do?  Stay and make the Church holy not leave and leave it to the abusers. 

[BarbTherese]

6 minutes ago, vee said:

What can we do?  Stay and make the Church holy not leave and leave it to the abusers. 

Well said!  And well said concisely!

Wish I could prop your post more than once. 

[vee]

Fulton Sheen said it better

[BarbTherese]

18 minutes ago, vee said:

Fulton Sheen said it better

Again, well said - and I have the opportunity to prop a post of yours again in this thread twice.

I have never had that beautiful gift of stating what I mean concisely, while I continue to admire and appreciate it.

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

Just now, beatitude said:

There are straight men out there who have raped boys and other men and gay men who have raped women and girls. In the service for refugees and torture survivors where I used to work, we had many clients who had been raped as a form of torture and humiliation. It wasn't about the perpetrator's desire for the opposite sex or the same sex, it was about their desire to inflict pain on members of a group they saw as inferior. Abuse is not necessarily about attraction. The only conclusion you can draw from a man who attacks a child (boy or girl) is that he's an abuser. It's not possible to say anything about his orientation based on that alone.

Father-child incest is a very common form of child sexual abuse, and it happens in married homes where everything looks rosy and perfect on the outside. I think we need to stop generalising about abuse. It makes it harder to spot, because if we don't expect to find it in a particular place, we won't be alert to the signs.

 

Beatitude peace to you. Look if you really believe guys who hook up/molest/rape males/ young teenage boys/children aren't homosexual then whatever. If you really believe these priests were just trying to hurt someone and they weren't attracted to males then again I don't know what to tell you. You and other Catholics keep acting like this is something messed up guys just do and it could just as likely be a straight guy doing it. Like some straight guy who likes blonds with big breast may also decide one day Brad Pitt is pretty freaking sexy. Or a 13 y/o kid named Adam is good looking. But this doesn't make him gay or bisexual. I mean honestly what are you talking about? Give me a break. For the last freaking time guys who are sexually attracted to women and STRAIGHT don't find males sexually attractive AT ALL. And when they do NEWSFLASH they are no longer straight. And then when they begin having actual physical sexual experiences with MALES  they definitely definitely DEFINITELY  aren't straight. That's how it is. I'm so sick and tired of hearing these scandals had nothing to do with the priests being homosexuals. It had everything to do with it. Please open your eyes and see the reality. You guys leave me dumbfounded how you don't see this. It's exhausting.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Guest

[PhuturePriest]

24 minutes ago, Josh said:

Beatitude peace to you. Look if you really believe guys who hook up/molest/rape males/ young teenage boys/children aren't homosexual then whatever. If you really believe these priests were just trying to hurt someone and they weren't attracted to males then again I don't know what to tell you. You and other Catholics keep acting like this is something messed up guys just do and it could just as likely be a straight guy doing it. Like some straight guy who likes blonds with big breast may also decide one day Brad Pitt is pretty freaking sexy. Or a 13 y/o kid named Adam is good looking. But this doesn't make him gay or bisexual. I mean honestly what are you talking about? Give me a break. For the last freaking time guys who are sexually attracted to women and STRAIGHT don't find males sexually attractive AT ALL. And when they do NEWSFLASH they are no longer straight. And them when they begin having actual physical sexual experiences with MALES  they defiantly aren't straight. That's how it is. I'm so sick and tired of hearing these scandals had nothing to do with the priests being homosexuals. It had everything to do with it. Please open your eyes and see the reality. You guys leave me dumbfounded how you don't see this. It's exhausting.

Being gay does not mean you will molest children, but that's exactly what you're implying. "It had everything to do with it." No, it doesn't.

In all honesty, Josh, I think you are trying to make sense of the situation by simplifying a complex issue so you can understand it. But it is unfortunately a very complex issue. It cannot be fixed by ostracizing a group of people and throwing them out. Scapegoating is society's favorite pastime, but it does not work and simply results in hurting a lot of people. Your words are incredibly offensive to many faithful Catholics, both lay and clergy, who have same-sex attraction. Your fixation on this issue and increasingly vitriolic rants about it are getting very wearisome.

I say this as a straight male pursuing the priesthood: your words are incredibly ostracizing and offensive to many people who both read and participate in these forums. Please think about how your words are interpreted by others and how they affect them. Gay people are not evil. Straight and gay refer to sexual orientation in accordance with the person's age (meaning 15 year olds like others near their age, adults like adults, etc.) Being a pedophile is an entirely different orientation and it happens for completely different reasons. These are psychologically damaged people who need help, and you are not helping them by blaming it on gay people and denouncing every faithful priest with SSA. You are instead hurting peoples' feelings and making people angry. I know several very faithful priests who indeed have same-sex attraction, and they are priests all priests should aspire to be like. Your words would hurt and anger them deeply, and they anger me, too.

The Church now has stringent qualifiers for letting people in, including rules about orientation. Anyone who has "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" is not to be admitted. However, "deep-seated" does not mean "anyone who finds men attractive". There are many faithful men in seminaries and the priesthood who were chosen by the Church with knowledge of their orientation because they were perfectly capable of living the priestly life without added problems with the regular problems of all other priests. They function like all other priests, and they are just as holy or unholy as all other priests. Your orientation does not determine your holiness. Please stop trying to simplify this issue, and please stop scapegoating. It's a horrible thing to do, and it's very unchristian.

Please think about what you say. Words are far more damaging than any of us like to think about.

Edited March 3, 2016 by PhuturePriest

[BarbTherese]

Appreciate your post, FP - you posted while I was writing mine.

Paedophilia is a sexual attraction specifically to a child as I understand it - it is the childhood that is the primary sexual attraction.  While homosexuality is sexual attraction to the same gender and it is the like gender that attracts sexually rather than opposite gender.  Some abusing priests assaulted both males and females - and there is more access by priests to male children in The Church than female children  - by just more or less glancing over some reports.  I do wonder if it might be lust out of control where children are simply available sexual objects for gratification and nothing more.  On the other hand, it might be homosexual lust out of control or acted out on male children as available objects.

I presume that in some cases of rape of both children and adults it could be a need to dominate and humiliate coming into play.

Can it all be pinned down to any one and only singular cause?

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

 

 

I resolved them through acknowledging that for me to abandon The Church would be to abandon Christ and His Gospel.  There was no way I could walk away from my absolute belief in the Presence of The Real Body and Blood of Christ in The Blessed Eucharist. Much reasoning and reflection flowed from that premise and mental and emotional stance. Disillusionment re certain Church leadership of all kinds in action and at parish level (i.e. The Church as a humanly functioning institution) was a possible and a result – but never to leave The Church.  To stand beside Christ no matter what comes along is my hope and prayer to the end.  I think this is what The Creed we recite prayerfully (i.e. addressed to God) during Mass is all about – and we renew our baptismal promises or vows at Easter and possibly at other times too.  These are not light words at all.  They have serious meanings and implications, responsibility and accountability.

And since Holy Week and Easter is coming up – a Catholic Culture article account of Roman crucifixion using various reliable sources as well as The Gospel account: http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/overviews/seasons/lent/passion1.cfm

Thanks for the link I will check it out. The Church is the body of believers. It's not just Catholics. I do believe in the Eucharist. Although I also believe sincere love filled Christians eat and drink Jesus's flesh and blood as well. His daily bread extends to all who have a sincere faith and walk in love. Not downplaying the Eucharist but I will not fool myself for one minute that Catholics who receive the Eucharist are automatically closer to God and better than Christians who don't go to Mass. Yes I believe Jesus started the Catholic Church and He's there in the Eucharist. But Jesus also said where 2 or more are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them. Catholics don't have the monopoly on Jesus. People want transparency. I want these disgusting scandals of children being sexually abused brought to the light. Not Bishops trying to save face and make the Catholic Church look good by hiding it and covering it up. It's to late for that. Why is this **** still trying to be covered up in 2016 when the whole freaking world already knows about this??? And I'm not gonna just shut up about it when it's in the current events and our Church leaders are still doing the same beaver dam thing and trying to cover up croutons.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

Just now, PhuturePriest said:

Being gay does not mean you will molest children, but that's exactly what you're implying. "It had everything to do with it." No, it doesn't.

In all honesty, Josh, I think you are trying to make sense of the situation by simplifying a complex issue so you can understand it. But it is unfortunately a very complex issue. It cannot be fixed by ostracizing a group of people and throwing them out. Scapegoating is society's favorite pastime, but it does not work and simply results in hurting a lot of people. Your words are incredibly offensive to many faithful Catholics, both lay and clergy, who have same-sex attraction. Your fixation on this issue and increasingly vitriolic rants about it are getting very wearisome.

I say this as a straight male pursuing the priesthood: your words are incredibly ostracizing and offensive to many people who both read and participate in these forums. Please think about how your words are interpreted by others and how they affect them. Gay people are not evil. Straight and gay refer to sexual orientation in accordance with the person's age (meaning 15 year olds like others near their age, adults like adults, etc.) Being a pedophile is an entirely different orientation and it happens for completely different reasons. These are psychologically damaged people who need help, and you are not helping them by blaming it on gay people and denouncing every faithful priest with SSA. You are instead hurting peoples' feelings and making people angry. I know several very faithful priests who indeed have same-sex attraction, and they are priests all priests should aspire to be like. Your words would hurt and anger them deeply, and they anger me, too.

The Church now has stringent qualifiers for letting people in, including rules about orientation. Anyone who has "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" is not to be admitted. However, "deep-seated" does not mean "anyone who finds men attractive". There are many faithful men in seminaries and the priesthood who were chosen by the Church with knowledge of their orientation because they were perfectly capable of living the priestly life without added problems with the regular problems of all other priests. They function like all other priests, and they are just as holy or unholy as all other priests. Your orientation does not determine your holiness. Please stop trying to simplify this issue, and please stop scapegoating. It's a horrible thing to do, and it's very unchristian.

Please think about what you say. Words are far more damaging than any of us like to think about.

Dude these were young boyish/teenagers. Stop saying that these priests weren't attracted to them. Really what are you talking about?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I'm not throwing anyone out. I said previously in this thread and countless other times on Phatmass that I have no problem with gay people. I never said gay people are evil. Never said anything like that so stop with that bull****. I'm not "fixated" on this issue. It's in the NEWS because it KEEPS HAPPENING AND TRYING TO BE COVERED UP AND THAT'S NOT OKAY OR ACCEPTABLE.

[BarbTherese]

27 minutes ago, Josh said:

Thanks for the link I will check it out. The Church is the body of believers. It's not just Catholics. I do believe in the Eucharist. Although I also believe sincere love filled Christians eat and drink Jesus's flesh and blood as well. His daily bread extends to all who have  a sincere faith and walk in love. Not downplaying the Eucharist but I will not fool myself for one minute that Catholics who receive the Eucharist are closer to God and better than Christians who don't go to Mass. Yes I believe Jesus started the Catholic Church and He's there in the Eucharist. But Jesus also said where 2 or more are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them. Catholics don't have the monopoly on Jesus. People want transparency. I want these disgusting scandals of children being sexually abused brought to the light. Not Bishops trying to save face and make the Catholic Church look good by hiding it and covering it up. And I'm not gonna just shut up about it when this stuff is in the current events. 

I think you have the right, Josh, to express your opinion like any of us here on Phatmass.  This forum is introduced by "talk about anything you want here. Don' be afraid" Any of us and perhaps even all of us at one time or another might cop some flack for doing so.  It is always the better move, I think, to speak to the argument/concepts presented rather than to speak to personalities, motivations etc.  The written word especially is so easily misunderstood.  It can be difficult where something is close to our hearts and emotions to keep that emotion in check.  I used to be a person who would speak up anywhere at all to anyone at all what I felt and with much anger if that was my underlying emotion.  I learnt over time, much time, to curb that habit when a very wise person said to me that I did really have something to say that needed to be heard, but when it came out in a burst of anger or any extreme emotion, others would not hear the content probably because of the emotive presentation which they could not move beyond.  Something like that.

Of course, I also believe absolutely that every person without exception on earth has free access to a relationship with Jesus.  While ideally we should be far better people than all because we do have The Blessed Eucharist, The Mass and The Sacraments, truth of the matter is that many to most of us probably are not better people and no better than anyone else for sure - using "better" because I can't think just now of a more appropriate term.  The very meaning of the Catholic terms "canonized saint" implies that they have reached that level of heroic holiness to which God has called and Graced them - i.e. their true identity here on earth.  We are all called to this and we all have the means. This does not mean at all nor am I implying that only canonized saints are saints indeed.  However, having access to the astounding Graces we do have in the aforementioned, it does spell out for us that we really do have as Catholics a tremendous responsibility and accountability we walk around with daily and hourly - by the minute and second.  And responsibility and accountability that we will need to speak to on the Day of Judgement.  I sure hope I never loose trust in the Infinite extent of God's Mercy to any who appeal to it - especially in This Year of Mercy.

But please do not interpret the above as meaning a person outside The Catholic Church cannot reach that level of heroic holiness to which God has called and Graced them.  "All things are possible to God"

Luke 18:27
He said to them: The things that are impossible with men, are possible with God.

I believe that all are called to The Catholic Church while all may not reach Heaven via that route.  It is a Mystery in God.

All as I see it, Josh.

Edited March 3, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[PhuturePriest]

Just now, Josh said:

Dude these were young boyish/teenagers. Stop saying that these priests weren't attracted to them. Really what are you talking about?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I'm not throwing anyone out. I said previously in this thread and countless other times on Phatmass that I have no problem with gay people. I never said gay people are evil. Never said anything like that so stop with that bull****. I'm not "fixated" on this issue. It's in the NEWS because it KEEPS HAPPENING AND TRYING TO BE COVERED UP AND THAT'S NOT OKAY OR ACCEPTABLE.

You're the only person who constantly makes threads about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure you're the only person who makes any threads about it. You are fixated on the issue. You constantly talk about this, constantly make threads about this, and constantly whine and bemoan it. These threads make zero difference to the issue. Scapegoating gay people makes zero difference in helping and causes a lot of unnecessary hurt.

That this happens is bad. That it is sometimes covered up is bad. Everyone agrees. Pray for the people involved. That does a lot more good than continually harping about it on Phatmass.

Many of the victims were young girls, too. Pedophilia is a sexual orientation. Gay people do not molest children, pedophiles do. I don't understand why you can't get this. Being gay =/= an attraction to children. There are many married straight men who are pedophiles.

You are indeed throwing people out. You said you wanted to when you said gay men have no place in the priesthood. That's scapegoating and throwing an entire group out. That's throwing out a lot of good, solid, orthodox priests who serve God and the Church faithfully. You have no place to tell God he called the wrong people. You have no authority to decide this. The Church itself hasn't even decided this. That you correlate being gay with pedophilia shows you lack basic understanding of sexual orientations and disorders. That you continually deny this shows you have no interest whatsoever in learning or in entertaining the idea that you might be wrong. I'm not going to waste my time continually defending good Catholics and priests because you refuse to reason with anyone. I've said what I needed to, and I don't see where this discussion is going to go at this point.