True Conservatism

[4588686]

Edited March 2, 2016 by Hasan

[Maggyie]

The beady eyed one is not a conservative. 

[MIKolbe]

he's no true Scotsman!!!!

[4588686]

8 hours ago, Maggyie said:

The beady eyed one is not a conservative. 

Sure he is. Listen to Rush Limbaugh. They sound just alike. Except Trump is slightly more reasonable on some domestic policy relating to healthcare.

[CatherineM]

He's certainly a tightwad. He's filed bankruptcy 4 times to avoid paying creditors. Wonder if he'd do that instead of raising the debt ceiling again or just sell off the national forests to pay the debt. 

[Maggyie]

1 hour ago, Hasan said:

Sure he is. Listen to Rush Limbaugh. They sound just alike. Except Trump is slightly more reasonable on some domestic policy relating to healthcare.

Rush is not that conservative either. He's an entertainer.

Trump despises free trade, thinks Planned Parenthood does great work, is aok with eminent domain, and favors government involvement in health care as you noted. His approach to immigration involves massive government expense and intrusion and is based on racial identity politics. He wants us to be involved in creating a "safe zone" in Syria, when he's done committing war crimes of course.

There's something there to annoy religious people, economic conservatives, libertarian conservatives and isolationists. 

[4588686]

32 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

Rush is not that conservative either. He's an entertainer.

Trump despises free trade, thinks Planned Parenthood does great work, is aok with eminent domain, and favors government involvement in health care as you noted. His approach to immigration involves massive government expense and intrusion and is based on racial identity politics. He wants us to be involved in creating a "safe zone" in Syria, when he's done committing war crimes of course.

There's something there to annoy religious people, economic conservatives, libertarian conservatives and isolationists. 

Rush Limbaugh is one of the major forces in American conservatism. Hannity, Laura, Michael Savage, Rush etc. They're absolutely part of it.

[Maggyie]

6 hours ago, Hasan said:

Sure he is. Listen to Rush Limbaugh. They sound just alike. Except Trump is slightly more reasonable on some domestic policy relating to healthcare.

 

5 hours ago, Hasan said:

Rush Limbaugh is one of the major forces in American conservatism. Hannity, Laura, Michael Savage, Rush etc. They're absolutely part of it.

Sorry the quoting thing is not working for me. Sure they are popularly associated with conservatism, actually, the Republican Party. It would be like saying Keith Olberman and Jon Stewart are "true American liberalism." They are liberals yes but I would never select them as representatives of an ideological movement which by definition is about ideas. They are clowns and I mean that in the most sincere way possible. They participate in the circus and like all good jesters sometimes speak the truth. Some more than others. Hannity especially is just a dum dum.

True conservatism I think of as Russell Kirk, Buckley etc. probably not a coincidence that I think of Catholics and not the Proddy or Jewish strain...

Note also that Trumps supporters tend to be what we would previously call Reagan Democrats or more accurately pre Nixon Dems.  I even saw a Silent Majority sign at one of T's rallies!! These are people who from an ideological perspective would still be voting as Democrats if not for the race issue. They like government spending, economic protectionism etc. most are unchurched (not religious)

As National Review put it, we have "overestimated the conservatism of the base." I think this whole situation shows just how tiny the conservative movement is in the USA... 

[4588686]

18 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

 

Sorry the quoting thing is not working for me. Sure they are popularly associated with conservatism, actually, the Republican Party. It would be like saying Keith Olberman and Jon Stewart are "true American liberalism." They are liberals yes but I would never select them as representatives of an ideological movement which by definition is about ideas. They are clowns and I mean that in the most sincere way possible. They participate in the circus and like all good jesters sometimes speak the truth. Some more than others. Hannity especially is just a dum dum.

True conservatism I think of as Russell Kirk, Buckley etc. probably not a coincidence that I think of Catholics and not the Proddy or Jewish strain...

Note also that Trumps supporters tend to be what we would previously call Reagan Democrats or more accurately pre Nixon Dems.  I even saw a Silent Majority sign at one of T's rallies!! These are people who from an ideological perspective would still be voting as Democrats if not for the race issue. They like government spending, economic protectionism etc. most are unchurched (not religious)

As National Review put it, we have "overestimated the conservatism of the base." I think this whole situation shows just how tiny the conservative movement is in the USA... 

Claiming that Jon Stewart or Keith Olberman were not, when they were both on the air, serious elements of American liberalism would be as weird and unfounded as your attempts to marginalize Rush are here. Sure, I hated Olberman, but he was a major force in the ideological camp I subscribe to. No denying that. Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham etc have been major forces in shaping the modern conservative movement. The National Review is a much more marginal force. I like the National Review. But Reihan Salam and Kevin Williamson are several orders of magnitude less influential than Rush Limbaugh is.

 

And your claim that these are 'Reagan Democrats' is pretty meaningless. Ok, so these are people who decades ago may have supported a Democratic Party that was a substantially different beast than the one existing today. There's a reason Trump ran as a Republican and not a Democrat.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Hasan

[Maggyie]

Right but my point is, these people who joined up with the GOP post 60s (and their heirs today) are not conservatives. They are working class, blue collar white people with race panic.

they are not running to "the pied piper of conservatism Donald Trump," they are running to "blue dog Dem Donald Trump with a crunchy layer of racialism on top."

Just on policy alone Trump would probably be one of the most liberal nominees in some time. Unelectable like Goldwater, but otherwise similar to Bloomberg. He ran with GOP because in spite of other flaws, Dems don't allow such coo coo nonsense. Also when they get a candidate to coronate they make it happen. 

[4588686]

8 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

Right but my point is, these people who joined up with the GOP post 60s (and their heirs today) are not conservatives. They are working class, blue collar white people with race panic.

they are not running to "the pied piper of conservatism Donald Trump," they are running to "blue dog Dem Donald Trump with a crunchy layer of racialism on top."

Just on policy alone Trump would probably be one of the most liberal nominees in some time. Unelectable like Goldwater, but otherwise similar to Bloomberg. He ran with GOP because in spite of other flaws, Dems don't allow such coo coo nonsense. Also when they get a candidate to coronate they make it happen.

One of the most liberal nominees? For who?

Saying that they're secret 'blue dog democrats' is just imposing your story on them. Go talk to Trump people. They aren't saying 'oh yeah, I like that he meshes up with a briefly existing subset from the 70s and 80s.' No, they talk about him being politically incorrect. They talk about him being macho. They refer to liberals and less racist Republicans as being cuckolds. Trump comes out of the Tea Party faction of the Republican Party. Were they also not conservative? Sure, Trump is not a conservative like Kevin Williamson. Burke was not a conservative like Maistre was. There are different factions of conservatism. Trump fits in with a very popular variant in America.

EDIT:
I missed arguing with you and Lillabettt

[Maggyie]

1 hour ago, Hasan said:

One of the most liberal nominees? For who?

Saying that they're secret 'blue dog democrats' is just imposing your story on them. Go talk to Trump people. They aren't saying 'oh yeah, I like that he meshes up with a briefly existing subset from the 70s and 80s.' No, they talk about him being politically incorrect. They talk about him being macho. They refer to liberals and less racist Republicans as being cuckolds. Trump comes out of the Tea Party faction of the Republican Party. Were they also not conservative? Sure, Trump is not a conservative like Kevin Williamson. Burke was not a conservative like Maistre was. There are different factions of conservatism. Trump fits in with a very popular variant in America.

EDIT:
I missed arguing with you and Lillabettt

I missed you too Sultan Hasan  

I would argue Ted Cruz is the Tea Party candidate in this race.  I would argue he is also the closest thing to an authentic conservative. Although since he has the ethical standards of a mule's waste, he has availed himself of some race stuff when he saw it could be valuable.

the Tea Party was a true conservative reaction to the liberalism of Obama's first term.

However because it was anti-Obama, it attracted others who were racists. It became anti-Obama, period. The ideas weren't important any more, just that you were anti-Obama. "Liberal" became code for "black" or "pro-minority." The Tea Party is a great example of a movement being co opted from within and control being lost. In this sense it is accurate to say DT came from the Tea Party. But only in that sense. 

I will cop to DT being a variant... Cuz fascism and nationalism are important threads. But not the face of "true" conservatism. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by Maggyie