Any literature on this?

[Gabriela]

I deliberately did not interview in any LCWR communities (some were CMSWR, some independent) and I did hear plenty of reference to the superior being "the voice of God in the community". As Sponsa suggested, these were more traditional communities.

The sisters I met felt very comfortable with this; it seemed freeing for them. As someone who often feels paralyzed by choice, I think that I also would feel a certain freedom in this. That is, after I finally accepted it, which would probably take a few years, given how God-awful stubborn and prideful I am.

Also, the communities that this came up in were all communities in which the superior is democratically elected on a regular basis, so should there really be a problem with abuse, it could at least be rooted out (fairly) quickly. Of course, that doesn't say anything about the damage to individuals and relations even a short spurt of abuse could do, but it could at least be stopped, and hopefully healed.

Now, if the whole culture of the community is abusive, that's a much worse problem. And I think that is really what's of concern here, more than one superior being a control freak and taking advantage of her power until the others put her out of it. In one community I interviewed in, it was hinted at that precisely this had happened: There was a bad superior, and she got voted out right quick.

I think it's also important to recognize that a belief in the superior as the voice of God is not incompatible with mutual discernment between superior and subordinate or between the whole community of sisters. All these can exist simultaneously, and often do, from what I've seen.

So when you put all this together—women who feel freed by obedience, superiors who know they can be kicked out if they abuse their power, and a community in which the superior's power is tempered by a culture of mutual respect and discernment—really, the "superior as the voice of God" belief is not a problem. Quite simply, the abuse of it is.

[Sponsa-Christi]

1 hour ago, Gabriela said:

 

I think it's also important to recognize that a belief in the superior as the voice of God is not incompatible with mutual discernment between superior and subordinate or between the whole community of sisters. All these can exist simultaneously, and often do, from what I've seen.

So when you put all this together—women who feel freed by obedience, superiors who know they can be kicked out if they abuse their power, and a community in which the superior's power is tempered by a culture of mutual respect and discernment—really, the "superior as the voice of God" belief is not a problem. Quite simply, the abuse of it is.

This is what I was trying to get at in my last post. Seeing God's will through the decisions of the superior is a good thing when it's understood in a healthy way. 

I guess, though, I am wondering exactly where the line between healthy vs. unhealthy is. It does seem that at times, though, that even when everyone involved is well-meaning, this belief (which I personally believe is a fundamentally true belief) can still wind up causing a lot of spiritual pain and damage. 

For whatever it's worth, I still have a hard time with the idea of eating ice cream under religious obedience, though. (That is, eating ice cream because your superior has commanded you to eat ice cream specifically as a way to obtain more grace.)

[veritasluxmea]

6 minutes ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

For whatever it's worth, I still have a hard time with the idea of eating ice cream under religious obedience, though. (That is, eating ice cream because your superior has commanded you to eat ice cream specifically as a way to obtain more grace.)

That kind of seems like abusing the idea, like grace can be passed out and you're doing things to earn it like money? 

However you leave a convent- I think I would still question God's will in it. After all, if He had wanted it to work out, He would have worked it out, right? If I left because my health wasn't good enough or I was asked it must have been His will. In a dysfunctional community I could blame it on them more, but still. I could see how someone would really struggle with this. 

[Sister Marie]

I also have a hard time understanding the ice cream under religious obedience.  My first objection is, I'm afraid, very worldly.  Being health conscious, I choose not to eat desert most times.  It doesn't tempt me and I don't enjoy it.  I would really resent someone making  me eat extra calories when I don't even like the "treat."  Now, if you bound me by obedience to a second helping of the meat or potatoes at dinner I would be far less reluctant!   

All joking aside, I can't say that I see any real grace coming from making mundane and ridiculous things into the will of God.  It's unhealthy to spiritualize everything.  Ice cream is really not worthy of a formal obedience, in my opinion.  In my own experience, formal obediences are given infrequently.  The most obvious formal obedience to me would be being sent to a new mission but we discuss things like that.  Again, it is more relational.  A sister needs to be open to God's will through her dialogue and conversations with superiors and superiors need to know that individual sisters also have valuable insight through their personal prayer and relationship with God which is essential to the practice of obedience.  Obedience that is blind doesn't seem to me to be too virtuous because you have no choice to obey.  Obedience that listens, discusses, shares, and relates leaves room for the will to conform itself to what God reveals through leadership and personal discernment.  The vow is lived all the time through listening, participating in community decision making, and honoring the decisions of those in authority.

In terms of those who enter and leave communities where obedience is considered listening to the voice of God through the superior, I can see a few things that might influence this.  First, there are definitely some communities where obedience is abused and superiors are the ones responsible for this.  Looking at the past, it seems this happened often in many communities.  I probably wouldn't use the phrase "the superior is the voice of God" but when I think about receiving a change of assignment I can agree that that decision is the will of God for me.  However, there are also interpersonal dynamics that can magnify a less than perfect situation.  One of these would be the nature of formation in the community and the individual sister in formation.  I never left religious life but my formation experience, like the experience of most was not all roses and sunshine.  There were wonderful experiences but there were also some hard ones.  We weren't taught that the superior was the voice of God.  We were taught a respect for her and we were told that we were entrusted to the care of the novice mistress upon reception into the novitiate.  For others, this wasn't problematic.  They were able to see the sister in charge of us as a human being, with faults and virtues, and themselves as individuals with the power to choose and decide how to respond to formation.  I had a harder time but it wasn't just because of the superior.   I conflated God's view and will for me with her view and will for me and they weren't necessarily the same thing.  That doesn't mean I would have been disobedient if I had realized it but I think I would have saved myself a lot of difficulties and struggles if I understood then what I understand now.  The hardship of formation for me was caused by a mixture of my perceptions and relationships, different personalities and backgrounds, and some mistakes on both sides that made it difficult for me in terms of obedience.  Formation is also a really intense experience so issues get magnified on both sides which can make it difficult to see straight.  I didn't leave my community but the transition from being a potentially temporary member to a permanent member took some time because I had to sort out some conflicting emotions I had about my formative experiences.  Once I had the time and space to do so things made sense and that gave me some peace about it.  

I would imagine, as others have said, that making sense of any disappointing or bad experience is an important/essential part of healing and moving on.  I would agree with what others have said about how damaging it would be for someone to be unable to understand the why behind what happened.  I can see why it would be so damaging to not be given a reason for being asked to leave so making some sense of the experience would be important for closure and peace.

[Gabriela]

Sister Marie, your post (especially the last paragraph) reminds me of the theory of sensemaking in organizations, by Karl E. Weick. I think that perspective is a really useful one for RL, especially for understanding the process that women who leave RL go through. Read about it at Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensemaking#In_organizations 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Gabriela

[katherineH]

Hart, G., Ames, K., & Sawyer, R. (1974). PHILOSOPHICAL POSITIONS OF NUNS AND FORMER NUNS: A DISCRIMINANT ANALYSIS. Psychological Reports, 35(1), 675-678.

Halstead, M M, & Halstead, L S. (1978). A sexual intimacy survey of former nuns and priests. Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy, 4(2), 83-90.

Ryan, S., & Colburn, Ellen. (2006). Under the Veil: What Is the Experience of Leaving My Mother's House at Midlife? The Voices and Choices of Former Nuns, 220 p. (dissertation)

Sangiovanni, L. F. (1974). THE EX-NUNS: AN EXPLORATION OF EMERGENT STATUS TRANSITION (Order No. 7415493). Available from ProQuest Dissertations & Theses Global. (288016894). Retrieved from http://search.proquest.com/docview/288016894?accountid=12964

Dart, J. (2012). Ex-nun offers tips for supporting Catholic sisters. The Christian Century, 129(14), 16.

I haven't read through any of these, but I did a few database searches and found them.  There weren't very many. Message me if you would like any of the PDFs. 

[Gabriela]

1 hour ago, katherineH said:

Hart, G., Ames, K., & Sawyer, R. (1974). PHILOSOPHICAL POSITIONS OF NUNS AND FORMER NUNS: A DISCRIMINANT ANALYSIS. Psychological Reports, 35(1), 675-678.

Halstead, M M, & Halstead, L S. (1978). A sexual intimacy survey of former nuns and priests. Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy, 4(2), 83-90.

Ryan, S., & Colburn, Ellen. (2006). Under the Veil: What Is the Experience of Leaving My Mother's House at Midlife? The Voices and Choices of Former Nuns, 220 p. (dissertation)

Sangiovanni, L. F. (1974). THE EX-NUNS: AN EXPLORATION OF EMERGENT STATUS TRANSITION (Order No. 7415493). Available from ProQuest Dissertations & Theses Global. (288016894). Retrieved from http://search.proquest.com/docview/288016894?accountid=12964

Dart, J. (2012). Ex-nun offers tips for supporting Catholic sisters. The Christian Century, 129(14), 16.

I haven't read through any of these, but I did a few database searches and found them.  There weren't very many. Message me if you would like any of the PDFs. 

Hmm... I bet you could get some guidance for spiritual direction out of the last two, maybe even the diss.

[Nunsuch]

How can Ryan and Colburn be a dissertation if it is co-authored? I don't understand. 

[Gabriela]

1 hour ago, Nunsuch said:

How can Ryan and Colburn be a dissertation if it is co-authored? I don't understand. 

If it was a published dissertation (though doesn't look to be by the bibliographic info), sometimes the advisor is listed as an author, if they provided substantial assistance.

[katherineH]

2 hours ago, Gabriela said:

If it was a published dissertation (though doesn't look to be by the bibliographic info), sometimes the advisor is listed as an author, if they provided substantial assistance.

Correct - I checked the title page of the dissertation and Colburn is the advisor. @Sponsa-Christi let me know if you'd like for me to message you the PDF. good luck in your search!

[Nunsuch]

In my 30 years as a tenured professor, I have NEVER seen such a thing on a dissertation. I just can't imagine. Who published this thing? Is it seriously published by a refereed press or whatever? If so, this is just not done. Part of a dissertation is NOT getting "substantial assistance." Yikes. [Apologies for the off-topic rant.] 

[Gabriela]

2 minutes ago, Nunsuch said:

In my 30 years as a tenured professor, I have NEVER seen such a thing on a dissertation. I just can't imagine. Who published this thing? Is it seriously published by a refereed press or whatever? If so, this is just not done. Part of a dissertation is NOT getting "substantial assistance." Yikes. [Apologies for the off-topic rant.] 

I was taught that this is NEVER to be done, but I was taught that because it IS done. Especially in countries like China, where giving authorship is a way of showing honor to your mentor/advisor, even if that person did jack squat on the paper.

Obviously, here, it raises ethical issues, both from the research and from the teaching/advising/mentoring perspective. None of my professors ever expected authorship on my work, unless they actually co-wrote part of it. I can understand why an advisor might get authorship on an article that came from a dissertation, if s/he helped to rewrite the material to fit it into the journal, but the dissertation itself... yeah, that's bad.

On the other hand, it might just be how this institution files away dissertations, and isn't intended as an actual indication of authorship.

[Nunsuch]

Who knows? If I have time later (ironically, I have a dissertation proposal defense today, and another to prepare for on Monday), I'll look this one up.  And of course articles can be co-authored. I've just never seen it on a dissertation. 

[katherineH]

5 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

Who knows? If I have time later (ironically, I have a dissertation proposal defense today, and another to prepare for on Monday), I'll look this one up.  And of course articles can be co-authored. I've just never seen it on a dissertation. 

The citation is for the dissertation and not for a published article.  It may just be how Proquest formatted the metadata, or how the librarian at the institution in question created the record for the dissertation. 

[Nunsuch]

53 minutes ago, katherineH said:

The citation is for the dissertation and not for a published article.  It may just be how Proquest formatted the metadata, or how the librarian at the institution in question created the record for the dissertation. 

KatherineH, librarians have nothing to do with this. This would come out of the grad school at the institution. I can't believe this would happen this way.  

OK. I just checked proquest. The citation above is incorrect. The SOLE author is Shelley Ann Ryan. Ellen Colburn is listed as "Core Faculty." I found the page of readers rather peculiar: Two "Core Faculty," two "adjuncts," and two "peers."  Interestingly, her MA is from my institution, but it does not say in what (it wasn't history, and I don't believe it was in religion, either).