Any literature on this?

[God's Beloved]

Over the years, several women in such situations, have come to me for counseling.  Can't think of any references for research at the moment, but if I remember reading something, I shall share it with you.  Several of those I've helped, experienced this crisis just before their Final vows.  They felt rejected by Jesus after several years of 'engagement.'  Some common reactions: talking continuously about their experiences in the community, refusing to face the fact that they were already out, inability to part with the habit / insignia, continuing with the same prayer routine, complaining why they were not asked to leave at an earlier stage,etc.  The typical stages of healing after trauma were seen: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.  Giving two to four weeks to make a transition helped them, especially if a few days after being asked to leave, were spent in the same religious community for emotional support. Finding a job had tremendous benefits.  However, in most of them, there was animosity towards the Church, giving up faith in God, joining social activists who worked for justice, even against Church teachings.  I tried bringing such women in contact with each other.  This helped.

I've also known some women who became consecrated virgins after leaving a convent. 

[Sister Leticia]

Just to add a few things to this very interesting and informative discussion: -

Firstly, I think there's another "category" of leavers - though hopefully rarer. These are the people who find themselves in a community that's become dysfunctional or unhealthy (or always has been, but they only realise it after the "honeymoon" wears off). These people might still love the original vision and charism, but other aspects of the life have become intolerable. They might spend a long time gritting their teeth, doing their best to make things work. They are not asked to leave (in fact, there might be subtle pressure to remain) and they don't/can't peacefully discern. I've met a couple of women who left their community in these circumstances, and they talked of escape and relief, but mixed up with that, of course, was anger, a sense of failure and difficulties with trusting God, others, themselves, plus self-reproach - "how could I have been so blind/stupid as to have ignored all the red flags along the way?"

I think too, there are also differences between whether someone leaves after 6 months or 6 years - or longer. Yes, leaving after even a few months can be painful, there can be disillusion, a sense of failure, especially if the person entered with a fanfare and lots of leaving home parties, or after waiting a long time because of debt, family issues etc. But at least s/he was still at a very early stage, a stage when it's understood that s/he is discerning whether this is the right place. But a few years down the line the person has made vows, formed strong ties to their community, everyone thinks they've found the right place and settled, so the decision to leave (or being asked to) is much more of a rupture.

And obviously, there are differences in things like re-integration, finding stability, resuming and forming friendships and relationships, coping with change, noise and so on, depending on what sort of order the person has left. Someone leaving a strictly enclosed monastery may feel a bit like Rip Van Winkle or someone who's been marooned on a desert island, and all this bewilderment and constant "catching-up" takes up enough energy, without all the grief, denial and anger.

[Sponsa-Christi]

5 hours ago, Gabriela said:

In my opinion, the only way to resolve the problem we're talking about (on a general level, not an individual one) is to level out the "objective worth" of all vocations, to say to people: "All vocations are equally valuable and useful to the Church. The best one for you is the one God calls you to." End of story.

I think you make a good point here, but I also worry about possibly throwing the baby out with the theological bathwater. Of course, the bottom line is that we can become saints in any state of life, and subjectively the "best vocation" is the one you yourself are called to.

But at the same time, the Church's ancient and consistent teaching is that "celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom" is a higher vocation in some objective respects---and women who are having a hard time after leaving convents know this, as it's clearly spelled out in documents like the Catechism and Vita Consecrata. For women who are really struggling with the logical contradictions that we mentioned, I don't think saying something that might come across as soft-peddling Church teaching (NOT saying that you, Gabriela, are trying to soft-peddle Church teaching, though!) probably isn't going to be really helpful or consoling in the long-term. 

Though I imagine for such women, the problem isn't so much the idea of being content with a "lower" vocation, but rather the idea that they DID give their heart entirely to God, but that God seemingly rejected their self-gift. 

I suppose my tentative big-picture solution would be that people in the Church should stop presenting religious life properly so-called as the be-all and end-all of a life specially consecrated to God. Besides other forms of consecrated life that the Church recognizes, anyone who isn't already married is free to make a private vow of celibacy (and this is the path that many saints chose). Being asked to leave a religious community doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus is not calling you to some kind of spousal relationship with Him or to some kind of radical commitment to the evangelical counsels.

Still, I honestly don't know how helpful saying something like this to a grieving ex-religious would really be. I have never been a religious, but I can imagine that if I were in that position, I think I personally would be most encouraged by someone saying something like: "Despite what happened in your community, I think Jesus is still calling you to a life of evangelical chastity, so persevere bravely!" (And this is basically the "right answer" for consecrated virgins who are having problems.) However, I could also see where this might be the absolute wrong thing to say to someone who really wants or needs to move on.

6 hours ago, Francis Clare said:

I've never seen anything written on this topic per se, but then again I've never researched availability either. I've had a few directees over the years who have left - either by choice or being asked to leave.  The main problems these women have faced was 1) their perceived lack of self-worth, 2) the perceived abandonment by God, 3) the negative reactions of friends and family (most especially family), 4) and their utter lack of clarity on what/where to go next.  In a nutshell, the ones who were asked to leave were shell-shocked whereas the women who discerned out of their own accord were much better off, spiritually speaking.  What always appalled me the most were the women who were asked/told to leave and either given no concrete reason/s (sappy generalities or downright mean missives) or the reasons given were "It is the will of God that you not be part of our community" or "God speaks through our (Insert here:  Abbess, Mother Superior, Mother General) and you must accept her decision as coming from God Himself....and that we do not question."

This basically gets to the heart of what I'm asking about. I know women who peacefully discern out of religious life might have challenges, but these would seem to be much more simple to resolve. I'm wondering how you would cope (or help someone else cope) with the idea that someone speaking for God has told you that God doesn't want what you offered, and it's not your place to know or question why. 

Echoing what Gabriela said earlier, maybe another part of the big-picture solution is that the magisterial needs to be better about spelling out exactly what is and is not appropriate and healthy in terms of how religious communities treat those who are in formation. 

[AveMariaPurissima]

5 hours ago, Sister Leticia said:

Firstly, I think there's another "category" of leavers - though hopefully rarer. These are the people who find themselves in a community that's become dysfunctional or unhealthy (or always has been, but they only realise it after the "honeymoon" wears off). These people might still love the original vision and charism, but other aspects of the life have become intolerable. They might spend a long time gritting their teeth, doing their best to make things work. They are not asked to leave (in fact, there might be subtle pressure to remain) and they don't/can't peacefully discern. I've met a couple of women who left their community in these circumstances, and they talked of escape and relief, but mixed up with that, of course, was anger, a sense of failure and difficulties with trusting God, others, themselves, plus self-reproach - "how could I have been so blind/stupid as to have ignored all the red flags along the way?"

I just wanted to draw attention to this and thank you for this. It corresponds well to what my experience was, and sometimes I feel like this type of situation doesn't get addressed as much. 

[TheresaThoma]

I definitely agree there should be more work done to figure out how to help people who leave religious life.

Though on a side note one of the most reassuring things was to meet some women who had discerned out of the community I am discerning with. This was not intentional but it was very helpful to talk to them about the community but also to see that leaving the community isn't a major ordeal. It made me more willing to say "lets give this a try, if it doesn't work out it will be ok." I think wome young people see entering religious life as this very final thing and that holds them back. Whereas if the general feeling of the Church is , 'go give it a try and if it doesn't work out there is support available" more people would take that leap.

[Gabriela]

30 minutes ago, TheresaThoma said:

I definitely agree there should be more work done to figure out how to help people who leave religious life.

Though on a side note one of the most reassuring things was to meet some women who had discerned out of the community I am discerning with. This was not intentional but it was very helpful to talk to them about the community but also to see that leaving the community isn't a major ordeal. It made me more willing to say "lets give this a try, if it doesn't work out it will be ok." I think wome young people see entering religious life as this very final thing and that holds them back. Whereas if the general feeling of the Church is , 'go give it a try and if it doesn't work out there is support available" more people would take that leap.

I absolutely agree with you that that type of experience can be super helpful. Unfortunately, there isn't really support available for women who leave. Leonie's Longing was founded because, when the founder left her community, nobody knew what to do with her. The diocesan vocations offices only help people get in. They don't help people get out. There was nothing available to her, so she started LL as a way to get such women to support one another. But they are widely dispersed all over the world...

That being said, there should be more support available, and diocesan vocations offices should really be more than offices for aspiring priests/religious.

[Sponsa-Christi]

24 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

I absolutely agree with you that that type of experience can be super helpful. Unfortunately, there isn't really support available for women who leave. Leonie's Longing was founded because, when the founder left her community, nobody knew what to do with her. The diocesan vocations offices only help people get in. They don't help people get out. There was nothing available to her, so she started LL as a way to get such women to support one another. But they are widely dispersed all over the world...

That being said, there should be more support available, and diocesan vocations offices should really be more than offices for aspiring priests/religious.

Hence, the need for some sort of book!

Diocesan vocation offices might not be the best place to try to help women who have left convents---often, diocesan vocation offices don't do much to help women discerners at all, and focus primarily on future diocesan priests. But I'm thinking the Church should have some articulated "best practices" somewhere, so that priests (and others) in many situations will know how to be helpful. Circling back to what I mentioned earlier, if a women approaches her parish priest for advice on discerning her vocation, it's likely the priest would have at least some obvious common-sense things to tell her. It seems like there should be some sort of parallel pastoral common-sense advice that would allow even ordinary parish priests to have a sense of what to do with a woman who was newly returned to the world. 

[Feankie]

The first and most important thing dealing with women who were told that God was speaking through their Superior and they had to leave was restoring their sense of self-worth, their faith in God, and their faith in others.  They often have the feeling of "Hurt me once, shame on me, hurt me twice...shame on you!" They are really terrified to try RL in another community they may feel called to. It's most important to lead them to discover (on their own, remember.....I direct, I don't dictate) that no human is infallible, that the only person who speaks for God (in a broad sense) is the Pope when he's speaking From the Chair. They need to realize that not everyone succeeds on their first try and it's by no means a slap in the face from God saying He doesn't want what they have to offer.......after all, He is the one who wonderfully made us and designed us and He doesn't make junk or inferior human beings.  We do a lot of work together to find what the right path might be, knowing full well that we are fallible and it may take a bump or two in the road to get to the final destination.  It could be RL, it might be CV, perhaps marriage, maybe a secular institute, or just living a single, simple life.  Whatever the case, it takes a lot of work, prayer, introspection (but not navel gazing), studying Scripture (doing Lectio is really helpful I've found), etc. to find resolution one way or the other.

[Nunsuch]

How many people in leadership exercise this kind of "voice of God" authority anymore? In the dozens of communities I have dealt with, leadership is done mainly though discernment and mutuality, and the point of formation is to enable sisters to take primary responsibility for their own spiritual and personal maturity. Maybe this is why, if people leave, they do not seem to be as "at a loss" as this thread seems to suggest. It is almost certainly difficult, as is any separation, but the women involved know how to negotiate with reality and are generally trained at a pretty high professional level, so that jobs are the least of their problems. Neither is spiritual maturity....

I honestly don't know any congregations which operate with the superior as the voice of God--even among Benedictines. I'm seriously asking this question. It just runs contrary to every congregation I have worked with, and they are in the dozens.

[vee]

On 3/1/2016, 11:56:04, Sister Leticia said:

Just to add a few things to this very interesting and informative discussion: -

Firstly, I think there's another "category" of leavers - though hopefully rarer. These are the people who find themselves in a community that's become dysfunctional or unhealthy (or always has been, but they only realise it after the "honeymoon" wears off). These people might still love the original vision and charism, but other aspects of the life have become intolerable. They might spend a long time gritting their teeth, doing their best to make things work. They are not asked to leave (in fact, there might be subtle pressure to remain) and they don't/can't peacefully discern. I've met a couple of women who left their community in these circumstances, and they talked of escape and relief, but mixed up with that, of course, was anger, a sense of failure and difficulties with trusting God, others, themselves, plus self-reproach - "how could I have been so blind/stupid as to have ignored all the red flags along the way?"

 

 

18 hours ago, AveMariaPurissima said:

I just wanted to draw attention to this and thank you for this. It corresponds well to what my experience was, and sometimes I feel like this type of situation doesn't get addressed as much. 

 

Your posts reminded me of an old thread I have bumped about signs of trouble in a community.  If there are any specific red flags that havent been mentioned and you feel may be beneficial to discerners to consider then please do share them!

[Sponsa-Christi]

3 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

How many people in leadership exercise this kind of "voice of God" authority anymore? In the dozens of communities I have dealt with, leadership is done mainly though discernment and mutuality, and the point of formation is to enable sisters to take primary responsibility for their own spiritual and personal maturity. Maybe this is why, if people leave, they do not seem to be as "at a loss" as this thread seems to suggest. It is almost certainly difficult, as is any separation, but the women involved know how to negotiate with reality and are generally trained at a pretty high professional level, so that jobs are the least of their problems. Neither is spiritual maturity....

I honestly don't know any congregations which operate with the superior as the voice of God--even among Benedictines. I'm seriously asking this question. It just runs contrary to every congregation I have worked with, and they are in the dozens.

From various reading I've done and from my personal experience with a number of religious from different congregations, I would say this actually tends to be fairly common with more traditional ("traditional" as in wearing habits, not necessarily traditional as in "traddy") American congregations. Maybe it will be nuanced a little bit, or maybe nobody would say verbatim "the superior is the voice of God," but there is definitely a sense and an expectation that God's will would expressed through the decisions of the superiors. 

[Nunsuch]

interesting. Most of my research is on congregations that were in the U.S. by 1917, but I've visited over six dozen of them to work in the archives, and read and even consulted on the post-Vatican II histories of some more. The emphasis in the spirituality and understanding of obedience is much more dialogic and consensual. And some of the communities wear habits, though not all. I don't think that's necessarily the determinative factor (though it might make the transition back to secular life easier because the women would already have clothing). 

 

[Feankie]

As far as the "Voice of God" mini-thread.....I can only relate to what I've seen in my SD practice.  For confidentiality, I cannot name the Order/s, year/s I saw directees, etc.  But I can assure you it DID happen, more times than I'd like to see.  I don't think these women were making it up or it was a figment of their imagination.  Perhaps the Superior/s involved took their office more seriously and perhaps they expanded their role/s as they saw fit.  I can't say, but often a person who is in authority abuses that authority either intentionally or unintentionally.  Power often corrupts one's thinking and thus abuse of others occurs.  It's sad to think it happens in RL, but it happens everywhere.

[Nunsuch]

Oh, I'm sure you're right. I'm just glad that it isn't universal, as I think it runs the risk of infantalizing "subjects" (or "inferiors," as they were called in the past).  I do think it happens less than it used to--as well as the equating of "humiliation" with humility.[I have a whole file of archival notes on that one!]

[Sponsa-Christi]

1 hour ago, Nunsuch said:

Oh, I'm sure you're right. I'm just glad that it isn't universal, as I think it runs the risk of infantalizing "subjects" (or "inferiors," as they were called in the past).  I do think it happens less than it used to--as well as the equating of "humiliation" with humility.[I have a whole file of archival notes on that one!]

I'm truly not trying to get into politics or stereotypes here, but to make use of some shorthand...generally in my experience LCWR communities would seem less likely to see the voice of the superior as the voice of God. The numerical majority of American congregations are LCWR members, so I imagine this was probably reflected in your research.

I remember one time attending a vocation talk from a very well-known, non-LCWR community with lots of vocations (which for privacy I won't name). The Sisters did strike me as lovely women, but I remember at one point one of the Sisters actually said, verbatim: "we are subjects under a superior, and we're comfortable with that language." And then the Sister who was a local superior talked about how everything they do under obedience is made virtuous BECAUSE of that obedience. As an illustration, she said: "even if it's something I think my Sisters would enjoy doing, like going for a walk or eating ice cream, I tell them to do it under obedience so that they can get the grace from that." I can see where a lot of people would find that beautiful, but it actually made me deeply uncomfortable for reasons I couldn't quite explain at the time.

I do think there can be a positive side of seeing God's will in the command of a superior. There is a lot of value, I think, in going to carry out some mission because you were sent. In some ways, I think it can be psychologically healthy insofar as it can be a way to become less self-centered.

However, as we've been discussing, the idea of the superior as the voice of God does need to be nuanced in such a way that a bad superior won't cause lasting spiritual damage to the Sisters under her authority. Again, I wish this is something the magisterium would articulate more clearly somewhere.